A question for Mr. Marotz

[kamagong]

Mr. Marotz I have a question for you. From reading your previous posts I came to the conclusion that you view the tanto as a sword and not as a knife. Reason being that the tanto is designed for one purpose and one purpose only, to be a weapon. Do you consider double edged daggers as swords also? Take the Arkansas Toothpick for example? The point is optimized for thrusting and I doubt if many would use this "tool" for utility. I look forward to hearing from you.

 

[Paracelsus]

I'll try to explain Robert's reasoning for that statement.

Robert is refering to a traditional Japanese tanto which was always part of a trio of swords. The katana, a large sword with an blade about 28 inches long, the wakizashi, a medium sword in the 18 to 22 inch range, and the tanto, a small sword in the 10 to 14 inch range. The tanto was not a utility tool. It was part of a system of weapons carried by practictioners of Bushido, or the way of the Samurai. It was a sword. A Smaurai did Not carry two swords and a knife. He carried three swords, each with a specific role in mortal combat.

Robert has revealed himself to be very knowledgable about Japanese swords, and he has adopted an entirely appropriate Japanese attitude towards these weapons. He trys to stick to proper Japanese definitions for the words used to name these weapons. In the Japanese system, the tanto is a sword, not a knife.

Since we are Americans, we often adopt words from other countries and then twist them in our own unique way. Thus, many swords are produced and labeled Katanas, but in the eyes of the Japanese, they do not have the requisite features to allow them to be called Katanas. In the case of the Tanto, most folks don't even realize that knives they call tantos, or knives with tanto tips (the chisel grind) are really nothing like what a Samurai would recognize as a tanto, or a tanto tip grind.

Hope that helps. Robert is quite correct. A little fussy about words sometimes, but correct

Paracelsus

[This message has been edited by Paracelsus (edited 02-24-2001).]

 

[kamagong]

Agreed. Although Mr. Marotz is a stickler for detail, I admire his passion for precision. It has taught me a lot, especially in showing me how much I do not know. Let me open up my original question to the rest of the forumites. Do you consider double edged daggers like the Arkansas Toothpick or Applegate-Fairbairn knives or swords?

[This message has been edited by kamagong (edited 02-24-2001).]

 

[Robert Marotz]

First, thank you both for the compliments and everything...it's highly appreciated.

Okay, moving right along...yeah pretty much what Para said...in its particular context, it is a sword. The term "dagger" falls into a weird category, as I have pondered over it a fair amount. This is where things get complex with different perspectives.

Partially this has to do with cultural mindset. My personal perspectives of what make a sword are not sweeping, as I don't think they can be. For example...many people would probably not appreciate it if I called all hand and a half swords of various cultures "katana." Literally, katana means "sword." Are all swords katana? Not in my opinion (but some may disagree). The term when used literally can be applied broadly (and unfortunately this happens often enough), but the vernacular denotes something more specific.

Katana, wakizashi and tanto were obviously not the only swords or sword designations used in Japan. It expands quite a bit. "Tanto" is a surprisingly broad category, and others like "shoto" and "daito" are even MORE vague.

Given the historical differences in role and concept, while I would refer to "tanto" and "sword" as brothers, I would probably call "dagger" and "sword" cousins.

But it is all a matter of perspective. I'm sure some historical Euro swordsmanship people who are picky about terms would not enjoy someone calling all double edged swords "broadswords." Or perhaps a big flamberge a "kris" blade. Maybe some uptight Scottish laddies would take offense if I called a CS "Tanto" a sgian dubh. Not all of course, but the uptight ones (

).

Some people will continue seeing swords as big knives. Some will continue to call tanto knives. But that's how it goes. My perspective will likely not change theirs.

The intricacies of music may be more apparent and appreciated by a lover of music, while the twists and turns of abstract painting may be more obvious and important to a connoisseur in in that field. And the bystander and the general art appreciator may see some of the virtues of each, but not care to involve themselves much with the particulars that so fancy the discriminating advocates of the individual genres.

In most cases, very few people will contest what a tanto is in terms of knife, dagger, sword, et cetera. It simply is not that important to try to point out an exception to broad generalizations. I will only make a point of it when I feel like being a snob about it (50% of the time maybe)

.

I think Para understands what I am trying to say pretty well about the cultural influence on terminology. It's just that there's so many cultures, so many feasible weapons of war built in the last few thousand years that have been classified individually within their own environment. Sometimes the linguistics used are more specific, sometimes they are not. I really welcome advocates and knowledged folks of other cultural weapons here, though I don't know if any will be showing up any time soon. It would be nice though.

Shinryû.

PS...Sorry about my bad writing, I tried to correct some of the goofs I made and wrote some amendments to help clarify a little.

[This message has been edited by Robert Marotz (edited 02-26-2001).]

 

[FullerH]

Robert, I read Para's and your responses and now I can understand a bit better how you can call a 6" tanto a "sword". It is a part of a 3 sword suite that was always considered as a unitary weapons suite, not as three separate items. That I can understand, for Iam always trying to tell people that this is how the Romans, at least those in hte Later Republic and the Early Principate viewed the Scutum-Pilum-Gladius combination, as a weapons system to be used together, not as individual items to be used separately. This grasshopper has been somewhat enlightened.

------------------
Walk in the Light,
Hugh Fuller

 

[TomW]

Bob
Give yourself more credit. You're a snob about 75% of the time.
One more little item. Like some others I've enjoyed reading every word you've written here. Even learned a few things.