A question for those of you who forge air hardening and other deep hardening steels..

Phillip Patton

Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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...what do you do for grain refinement? The data sheets say not to normalize. Do you do it anyway? Does it not matter? Some of the steels I'm thinking of are Crucible L6, O1, and 440c.
My copy of Tool Steels says to slow cool L6 after forging, then anneal, then harden. Is this good enough?
 
You can't normalize air hardening steels since the air cooling will harden them .You can only anneal .The annealing will do what normalizing will do for the most part [make structure more uniform throughout the piece, relieve stress, refine grain] Many of those steels also have things like Vanadium to restrict grain growth.
 
Mete pretty much hit it on the head. I don't see why L6 or O1 can't be normalized, though.
 
But quenching them would refine the grain also, right? You just run the risk of cracking...
How does annealing refine the grain? I'm not sure I've ever heard that explained.
Would you recommend normalizing O1?
 
Mete pretty much hit it on the head. I don't see why L6 or O1 can't be normalized, though.

The Mo containing variety of L6 is basically air hardening, especially in thin pieces like knives.
 
My understanding is it is mainly the Cr that makes multiple quenching and normalizing bad for air quenching knives. You will see some hardening when normalizing steels like L6 and O1, but as long as you anneal them, they should be fine. I could be wrong, of course.

I don't know much about annealing, but it and normalizing are two subject I'm currently looking for some good literature on. I wish I knew if it was possible to refine grain through annealing, I believe it can make the grain size more uniform. There are so many types of annealing that one of them could very well be designed mostly for refining grain size.

Edit: Obviously, I don't feel that the small amounts of chromium in L6 and O1 contribute much if at all to air hardening.
 
My understanding is it is mainly the Cr that makes multiple quenching and normalizing bad for air quenching knives. You will see some hardening when normalizing steels like L6 and O1, but as long as you anneal them, they should be fine. I could be wrong, of course.

I don't know much about annealing, but it and normalizing are two subject I'm currently looking for some good literature on. I wish I knew if it was possible to refine grain through annealing, I believe it can make the grain size more uniform. There are so many types of annealing that one of them could very well be designed mostly for refining grain size.

Edit: Obviously, I don't feel that the small amounts of chromium in L6 and O1 contribute much if at all to air hardening.

It's the moly in the L6 and the manganese in the O1 that makes them so deep hardening. Chromium does that also, but I agree that these steels probably don't have enough to do it.
 
It's the moly in the L6 and the manganese in the O1 that makes them so deep hardening.
Yeah, so like I was saying, I don't think that manganese or molybdenum cause the duplex grain that chromium does in air hardening steels, but I don't have anything to back up that claim. Isn't it the nickel that makes L6 so deep hardening?

I'm pretty sure Kevin Cashen normalizes his O1 and L6 all the time. You might e-mail him about this subject, or hope he pops up in this thread.
 
Nickel doesn't make it deep hardening, it makes it tougher. Nickel is a ferrite stabilizer, which I think means it will actually make it more shallow hardening, but the chrome and moly are enough to overcome it.
Yes, let's hope someone who knows what they're talking about chips in. :D
 
Nickel doesn't make it deep hardening, it makes it tougher. Nickel is a ferrite stabilizer, which I think means it will actually make it more shallow hardening, but the chrome and moly are enough to overcome it.
Yes, let's hope someone who knows what they're talking about chips in. :D
15N20 is 1075 plus 2% nickel. You can water quench 1075, but 15N20 is only oil hardening.
 
15N20 is 1075 plus 2% nickel. You can water quench 1075, but 15N20 is only oil hardening.


15N20 has enough manganese to make it oil hardening, it also has some silicon added, which will make it deeper hardening.
 
Mete pretty much hit it on the head. I don't see why L6 or O1 can't be normalized, though.

It is the semantics of metallurgical and industrial definitions that interferes here; the steel doesn't care one way or the other. Many metallurgists and industry guys have a differing definition of "normalizing" than we do. Although I have yet to find a text that indicates that one must soften or stress relieve the steel in order to normalize it, many feel that is the case. Since I look at normalizing as a process of refining, redistributing, and evening or homogenizing internal structures and stress/strain, there is no problem with my normalizing O1, L6 or any other deep hardening steels, although I prefer not to do anything with a true air hardener, just not my cup of tea.

One just needs to remember that the rules change a bit when normalizing deep hardening steel. You will get no results if you treat it like a shallow hardener (well a little bit in the heating, but no marked grain refinement). In order to refine grain one must cycle it through a transformation from austenite to another phase/structure. So if you simply cool it until it loses incandescence, like say 1084, there will be no significant change since the pearlite transformation is suppressed. Instead one will have to rely upon upper bainite to do the job for you and this will require that you go to around 700-750F instead before reheating. I have heard absurd claims from folks that L6 cannot get as fine a grain as other steels they tried, this is because they didn't understand this simple principle (one more reasons I am not a fan of assumptions made without metallurgical research to support them:rolleyes: ). Use the magnet when normalizing, as soon as the stuff regains magnetism you can reheat it and achieve grain refinement. Start out with higher temperatures to move the carbides around and then go a little cooler. Never go from 1700F or better to room temp or cracking could occur in 01 or L6; instead bring it down in steps so that the final heat is from a uniformly fine structure.
 
It is the semantics of metallurgical and industrial definitions that interferes here; the steel doesn't care one way or the other. Many metallurgists and industry guys have a differing definition of "normalizing" than we do. Although I have yet to find a text that indicates that one must soften or stress relieve the steel in order to normalize it, many feel that is the case. Since I look at normalizing as a process of refining, redistributing, and evening or homogenizing internal structures and stress/strain, there is no problem with my normalizing O1, L6 or any other deep hardening steels, although I prefer not to do anything with a true air hardener, just not my cup of tea.

One just needs to remember that the rules change a bit when normalizing deep hardening steel. You will get no results if you treat it like a shallow hardener (well a little bit in the heating, but no marked grain refinement). In order to refine grain one must cycle it through a transformation from austenite to another phase/structure. So if you simply cool it until it loses incandescence, like say 1084, there will be no significant change since the pearlite transformation is suppressed. Instead one will have to rely upon upper bainite to do the job for you and this will require that you go to around 700-750F instead before reheating. I have heard absurd claims from folks that L6 cannot get as fine a grain as other steels they tried, this is because they didn't understand this simple principle (one more reasons I am not a fan of assumptions made without metallurgical research to support them:rolleyes: ). Use the magnet when normalizing, as soon as the stuff regains magnetism you can reheat it and achieve grain refinement. Start out with higher temperatures to move the carbides around and then go a little cooler. Never go from 1700F or better to room temp or cracking could occur in 01 or L6; instead bring it down in steps so that the final heat is from a uniformly fine structure.


Thanks Kevin, you pretty much confirmed what I've been doing for a while. Since your lecture at the Troy bladesmithing Expo, I've been using the magnet when I thermal cycle. The first time I did it, it was very eye opening. It took about ten minutes for an O1 blade to get magnetic again. That's a lot longer than I'd expected. Then I noticed each time I cycled it, at lower temps, it took less and less time to get magnetic. I'm assuming this is because as the grain gets refined, the hardenability gets lowered. Is that correct?
Here's what I'm doing right now with my steels.
After forging, I do one or two cycles using the forge for heating, just to relieve stresses from the forging. After the piece cools, I do 4 thermal cycles, first at 1600, then 1550, then 1500, then 1450, letting it become magnetic in between each one. Then I run a sphereoidal anneal.
Anything you would suggest I change in that procedure?

I'm still wondering what they do in industry. The books I have say that for L6, not to normalize, but to slow cool after forging, then sphereoidize, then harden. :confused:

Thanks,
Phillip
 
Industry is worried about hardening when nromalizing, which is kind of funny if they wish to spehroidize since a hardened blade will spheroidize much better than a soft one. BUt we also need to remember how simple our shapes are, we tend to forget that a lot, industry has much more complex shapes that can give problems if allowed to harden in a uncontrolled manner.
Your schedule for cycling looks fine.
 
Industry is worried about hardening when nromalizing, which is kind of funny if they wish to spehroidize since a hardened blade will spheroidize much better than a soft one. BUt we also need to remember how simple our shapes are, we tend to forget that a lot, industry has much more complex shapes that can give problems if allowed to harden in a uncontrolled manner.
Your schedule for cycling looks fine.

So Mr. C.....do the simpler steels like the 10xx series, W2, 5160, etc just need to cool to where they are totally dark to get the full benefit of the normalizing?
 
All you need is the transformation to pearlite .Once that happens nothing else will occur.
 
mete, I think he's wondering when the transformation is complete. That should be when it's magnetic again, right?
 
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