A Question of Ethics? Opinions requested

Bronco

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I recently sent an e-mail to Jake Evans in response to a thread he had started regarding customizing production knives. I saw this as a good opportunity to run an idea I'd had by one of our outstanding custom artisans.

In essence my thought was that there might be a good market out there for someone capable of crafting aftermarket drop-in Sebenza blades, built to exacting tolerances, and fashioned out of some of the more cutting edge steels now available such as CPM-440V, 3V and 10V (please, no disrespect intended to BG-42 fans). As simple as it is to disassemble (and reassemble) a Sebenza, these could, in theory, be marketed and sold as true aftermarket accessories. I think it would be great to be able to carry around a Sebbie with a hollow ground clip point blade made out of CPM-10V one week, and then turn around and re-outfit the same knife with a tanto blade in 3V the next.

Whether this idea has any merit or not is beside the point and truly not the purpose of this post. To make a long story short, Mr. Evans graciously responded to my e-mail in short order and explained that his interests and expertise lie in other areas of the knifemaking art. He also expressed some reservations concerning how such a project would be received by our community if undertaken by anyone other than Chris Reeve.
This struck a chord with me because I too had developed a strong suspicion in my short time in these forums, that such an idea might not be viewed favorably by the forumites at large. Its probably the main reason I opted to e-mail Jake rather than post directly to his thread.

But the more I thought about it, the more I became convinced that this might be a topic worthy of discussion. Am I being unecessarily sensitive to a potential problem that doesn't exist, or would it be considered disrespectful if a maker were to produce a blade for another maker's knife. I don't know if this analogy equates to comparing apples and oranges, but Bar-Sto, Wilson and others make some super replacement barrels for the custom .45s I own and this sort of aftermarket upgrade business is totally accepted within the gun community.

I guess the optimal solution would be if Chris Reeve himself could offer these replacement blades, but as we all know he's already as busy as a one armed wall paper hanger, and can barely keep pace with the orders on hand. So, inasmuch as its unlikely Chris would be able to offer this product, does that mean another maker would be considered unethical or a bad guy if he were to pick up the slack (assuming the demand for such an item even exists). Any insight on this subject from the members of this forum more experienced than I (which is basically everybody) would be most appreciated.

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Semper Fi
 
Since the Sebenza is a production knife (albeit a very high-end one), I don't think anyone can complain if you want to customize it. I don't know if there is a market, as many people seem extremely satisfied with the Sebenza, as is.

--JB

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e_utopia@hotmail.com
 
I hadn't thought of the Sebenza, because as you pointed out most are happy with it, though there have been queries of a Wharncliff style blade.....but the one knife that is coming out soon that should be a very likely canidate would be the Benchmade Butterfly knife? I know they are screw construction but someone mentioned that there was also some kind of press in dealy that might prevent field changes, but it would be nice to have that option.

Good question!

G2

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"The Road to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions!"
Take the time to read your Bible Now, don't be left behind...


G2 LeatherWorks
 
If I were you, I would just post this on the CR forum. The Reeves are known for giving very kind, compassionate answers to posters.

Walt
 
Quite frankly, I think it was rather ethical to ponder the implications of such an endeavor and post publicly asking about it, instead of forging ahead and scrounging around to find someone willing to undertake such a task, loyalties, sensitivities and ethics be damned.

It would be an interesting project, though I'm a fan of the Sebenza as it is. A semi-wharncliffe would be intriguing, though... perhpas in a Sawby-style. Hmm, I'll have to ponder this one further.

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Don LeHue

Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings...they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
 
I think the blades would have to be individually fitted to the locking bar of the knife for which they were made. There's a good bit of handwork in getting any liner lock type mechanism to work and lock up properly. As with many pistol parts, they don't just "drop in" but need to be hand fitted by someone who has experience and understanding of the mechanism on which they're working.

If you're looking for changable blades, I think Böker still makes a lochback folder with a number of blades.

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Totally new website!
http://www.wilkins-knives.com
 
Why not ask on the Chris Reeves forum at knifeforums.com ?



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Regards,
Gester

AKTI Member #A000190

It's easier to get forgiveness than permission.


 
no disrespect meant to anyone but what I do with any knife after I PAY for it, is my business. Of course, if I did do something, I would expect that any warranty would be voided.

Just my .02

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Dave
Phil. 4:13

Many are called but few are chosen,
Brother dont let your heart be frozen.-Charlie Daniels
 
One could indeed post the query on the Chris Reeve Forum on Knife Forums.com; however, since there is a Chris Reeve Forum right here on BFC, under makers and manufacturers, I fail to see the advantage. Walt
 
Gents,
Thanks to all who have responded thus far. I'm relieved that you considered this a topic worthy of discussion. Some thoughts concerning the feedback thus far:

1. I can certainly see the possibility of adding a similar post to the Reeve forum and would most welcome and value any input from Chris himself. That having been said, I'd like to reemphasize that my reason for placing this post here is because I am first and foremost interested in the thoughts and opinions of all of the rest of you. Although it was one of Chris' products that brought this question of ethics to the floor, it was not my intention to limit this discussion only as it pertains to Sebenzas.

2. Would there be a market for an accessory blade for a Sebenza as they are so good right out of the box? This question takes us a little bit off topic, but let me just say that the first purchase I made after joining this forum was for a small Sebenza. Like the vast majority of Sebenza owners I absolutely love it and its with me everyday. My original idea was the product of an observation I'd made that the only thing many Sebenza owners love more than
their knives, is tinkering with and personalizing their knives. I saw this idea as an opportunity for the Sebenza faithful to not only personalize their knife, but also to marginally improve on the performance of their pride and joy. I remember a thread on the Reeve forum dedicated to nothing more than identifying aftermarket sources of multi-colored parachute cord to replace the stock black paracord that is delivered on the Sebenzas.

3. As to Mr. Wilkins observations regarding the chances of being able to effectively produce a true drop-in replacement blade that doesn't require handfitting, I completely defer to his experience in this regard. It may not be possible, and if so it certainly wouldn't be the first non-workable idea I've had in my life. I saw the Sebenza as a natural candidate for an idea like this primarily due to the incredibly precise tolerances Chris is able to maintain in his manufacturing process. I figured that if there were any knife produced that might obviate the need for handfitting, the Sebenza would be it.

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Semper Fi

[This message has been edited by Bronco (edited 04-01-2000).]
 
Again, I would like to point out that the Sebenza is a production knife. Therefore, like any prodcution piece, parts will be interchangeable unless there was a mistake made on either the knife or the new part being 'dropped in.' I don't know what pistols Kevin Wilkins is referring to, but parts form any mass-produced guns I've dealt with can be swapped back and forth with no problem. I think this whole feeling results from a widely-held belief that the Sebenza is a custom knife. It happens to be a production piece, but also happens to be better than many customs available. To some extent, I think being a production knife has its advantages, including interchangeable replacement parts, which you will not find on many (if any at all) custom knives. I'll probably have to get one, one of htese days. When I do, I would certainly like to swap blades out for different tasks
smile.gif


--JB

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e_utopia@hotmail.com
 
"I don't know what pistols Kevin Wilkins is referring to, but parts form any mass-produced guns I've dealt with can be swapped back and forth with no problem." – e_utopia

Well, for example the M1911 Colt. In that case I'd refer you to "The Colt .45 Automatic A Shop Manual" by Jerry Kuhnhausen, and I think you'll see pretty quickly what I mean. Or ask any gunsmith. I've been through the Smith and Wesson factory and those weapons are fitted by people. One after the other. And while some parts can be interchanged without a worry, others can't. It's knowing which ones can and can't be interchanged that's important. A firearm is a precision instrument and should only be worked on by someone who is qualified and has a complete understanding of how it works. Anything else is asking for disaster.

Folding knives are fitted together by people, NOT be machines. Each one is adjusted and tested. Doesn't matter if they're made by Spyderco, Benchmade, Chris Reeve or whatever. Sure some production steps are automated. Spyderco and Benchmade grind their blades on automated machines. Reeve's blades are hand ground. Some parts can be "dropped in" and others can't. An M3 screw thread is an M3 screw thread for example.

The fit of the blade to the locking bar is critical in the functioning of the knife. These parts are NOT interchangable. Maybe a new blade will need almost no fitting and maybe it'll take some fine stoning to adjust the lockup. One reason Reeve's knives have such a good reputation is that the people putting the knives together take a lot of time and trouble - not to mention skill - to get the knives right. Spyderco and Benchmade also have good employees putting their products together. It's rare that one of these knives will close up on your finger. That's why. This all costs time and money and is one thing you're paying for when you buy a fine product.

This attention to detail isn't taken by every person or firm making knives and I'm sure we've all seen such products. In such firms maybe they DO have a big box of blades and some poor underpayed untrained worker who has an hour to slap together a hundred pieces. That's not the kind of knife Chris Reeve makes.

And while I don't have any "ethical" problem with anyone buying a knife and doing whatever they want to it or with it, I can tell you that to design and make a knife of the type and quality made by Reeve, or Spyderco or Benchmade or any number of high quality folders requires a hell of a lot of knowledge and experience. Anyone who can manage this is wasting their time making blades for somebody else's knife. They should design and make knives that carry their own mark. They will have earned it.

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Totally new website!
http://www.wilkins-knives.com
 
Well, to avoid a flame war, I think we should agree to disagree. I have no personal experience with the M1911, so I'm willing to accept that it may require hand-fitting. I've dealt mostly with military weapons, which need to be field-servicable, so every part must be the same to some certain tolerance, right out of the box. I've never seen the manufacturing operation at Benchmade's factory, but I can tell you that I just looked at the locking surfaces of my 856, and there was no evidence of hand-adjustment. Benchmade cuts their stock with laser cutters, which can easily maintain tolerances tight enough to make interchangeable parts, when properly adjusted. If the blade and liner are each off by 1/1000th of and inch, in opposite directions, the lock would still be strong, and that assumes that the two machines are off in opposite directions, to an extreme amount. Of course, if Reeve want to use hand-grinding, then the parts may not be interchangeable, which I would call an oversight on his part. There is a reason why so few custom makers make folders, and so many production companies do: automation can achieve higher tolerances than humans. Maybe the Sebenza will not support interchangeability (I admit that it was an assumption of mine that Reeve would use automation where appropriate), but if anyone here has two Benchmades of the same model, they should be able to swap the blades easily.

Just to wrap things up, I will state again that I don't want this to become another flame war, so if anyone wants to flame me, my email is right there. I will admit that my posts here have been based on certain assumptions, but assumptions which I believe to be very reasonable, given my experience with modern manufacturing techniques (the origin of mass-production was military firearms milled by machine such that parts were interchangeable in the field, rather than having to scrap an otherwise workable gun).

--JB

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e_utopia@hotmail.com
 
My only questions are:
"What are ethics?"
and
"Can you sell them for money?"

[This message has been edited by Jeff Clark (edited 04-02-2000).]
 
Jeff, yes you can sell ethics for money. Usually this called "politics." :-)

JB,

hope you didn't take my comments as a flame towards you: that's not the way I meant 'em. And you sure don't have to believe me either. :-)

The M1911 was the US military sidearm for upwards of 70 years. Some folks are still sorry to have seen it replaced and it remains often the choice of those who sail in harm's way. When John M. Browning designs a firearm it stays designed. :-)

In the military they have armourers who's job it is to take care of the shootin' irons. So while a lot of parts are "drag and drop" others still aren't.

I bet you'll be a lot more likely to get flamed by Benchmade's workers than by me. :-) Certainly there's less hand fitting in knives made using modern technology but those things don't asseble themselves and that last little bit is still important. There's a lot of work goes into knives from the time the parts are laser blanked until the knives get shipped out. (I've used laser cutting for my knives and use waterjet cutting all the time.) And a lot of these steps are done one at a time by hand by skilled workers. The fact that your knife doesn't look like it's had anything done to it is a tribute to the skill of the Benchmade team and to the high quality of Benchmade's products. If you still don't believe me, try and buy just a replacement blade from Benchmade. There's a reason why you'll have to send in the whole knife.

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Totally new website!
http://www.wilkins-knives.com
 
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