A small observation on ergonomics

[Planterz]

I just got my 5th FRN handled Spyderco today, a yellow Salt 1, and I'm sorry to say that I'm a bit disappointed.

The problem is that the knife simply is not comfortable. The other 4 are fine. 3 of them are great. My first one was a Rescue 93. This knife is a pleasure to hold. The finger choil and thumb cutout fit my hand wonderfully. The magic of the H1 steel led me to purchase my next FRN Spydie, a Pacific Salt. I missed the finger choil, but the handle was big enough that it didn't matter. My next one was an Atlantic Salt. I snatched one up as soon as I could, since it was nearly everything I wanted: H1 in a Rescue blade. I love mine. I wish there was an unserrated portion (.5-1" worth) like on my blue Rescue, but it's nearly perfect otherwise. 4th up was the Calypso Jr. Very comfortable in the hand.

But then there's the Salt 1. I don't know for sure, but it seems like it uses the same handle as the Delica (and the Pacific uses an Endura handle, and the Atlantic uses a Rescue handle). Now, I don't have particularily large hands; in fact I've got rather skinny fingers. Yet I just can't hold this knife comfortably. The odd thing is that it's slightly smaller than the Calypso Jr. However, the finger choil on the Jr. makes all the difference in the world, making it feel like a larger knife, even though it's smaller. Only 1/8" less cutting length. But of course, the Calypso Jr, isn't made in fully serrated H1.

I'm not really complaining here, even though it might seem like it. No one knife can be a perfect fit for everybody. I ordered a Salt 1 in hopes that it'd be a comprimise between my Pacific Salt (too big) and my Atlantic Salt (no plain edge tip), but it looks like I might have to pass this one along to somebody else, someone who it fits better. Perhaps I should have tried one (or a Delica) out before ordering one online.

However, if the Delica/Endura is ever updated with a finger choil, I'd like to see this done to the Salts too. For me, that little difference makes all the difference in the world.

A San Mai ZDP-189 sandwiched between 420J layers Calypso Jr with full serrations might be nice. I think these are all going to be plain edge though...

 

[donovan]

It's a drag when it just doesn't feel right. I find Sebenzas uncomfortable enough not to buy one, but the Spydie Wegner is a perfect fit. Ergonomics-go figure.

Jack

 

[djolney]

I sometimes wonder whether the ergonomics are affected by the marketting people wanting different models to look different, or if there are just so many variations in hand size and shape.

My Northwoods Willow Leaf and Busse Magnum EU-17 have handles that seem to be comfortable for everyone who has held/used them, and this must be a pretty rare situation.

 

[STR]

The little point on the handle where I always want to rest my index finger is the main reason I justified remaking a new body out of titanium and wood for my Salt 1. I had a Calypso Jr and I know what you mean about the comfort.

It was like this for me too. I liked the CJ but the opening hole was too small and it is tip down carry. I liked the Delica and it was tip up carry like I wanted but the knife isn't as comfortable in the hand as the CJ so I tried the Salt 1.

It is the Delica handle on the Salt 1. In fact the whole knife is pretty much an H1 version of the Delica only it doesn't have the splinter picker point and it has a bit more heft in the blade due to the tip being thicker I guess. And it has that great 14mm Spyderhole. Probably my favorite thing about it right there. I found myself being torn between the Para-Military and the Salt 1 but really liked both. The H1 steel is so appealing it is hard not to want to carry that knife.

The real hesitation in my doing the rebuild was with the warranty being shot if I cut the FRN handle open and rebuilt new liners and scales but that is what I did and after three days of using it feeling it and moving forward in baby steps I finally have it where I want it.

Anyway that is how I dealt with my Salt 1. It was an interesting and challenging project. But it worked out well in the end.

 

[frank k]

Although I do like the ergos of the Endura/ Pacific Salt and Delica/ Salt, I like the Calypso Jr. and the Atlantic Salt/ Rescue 93 mm much better. The choils are great, but some people don’t like their finger to touch the blade.


I would love to have more blade/steel options in the Calypso Jr. and Rescue 93 handles. One possibility would be a Stretch type blade on the Rescue 93/ Atlantic Salt handle and a H1 Calypso Jr. Salt sprint would be nice also (Plain edged please!).



- Frank

 

[lreed]

I think there is a granularity issue embedded in the ergonomics issue. A straight handle fits almost every hand but doesn't fit so well. However, a handle fitted extremely well to a particular hand won't fit most other hands. For me, since I got small hands, most "ergo" handles won't fit my hands as well as others' (e.g., sadly, the native ). So, I prefer handles like the one on Mr. Dozier's K15 neck knife as shown in http://www.dozierknives.com/images/k15.jpg .

 

[Sal Glesser]

Hi,

Ergonomic designs are right up there with function on our drawing boards. As lreed mentioned, balance is the most difficult part.

Somewhere between a "stick", which fits the most hands and provides the least in control, and a formed custom piece, the balance is difficult.

We test our models in a variety of hands sizes at Spyderco from small to large, thin and thick. Each of these people have been doing this for some time and know how to communicate "hot spots". Many models are made, modified, remade 10, 20 times. Even after years of production of a model, we are always tweaking ergos a half of a mm at a time.

One size is almost impossible, but I think our track record is good (Kiwi, Kopa, Dodo, etc).

Most of the time, we like 2 sizes, eg; Endura, Delica. We can more effectively serve most hand sizes in this manner, while still offering safe, comfortable egronomics with a high degree of control over the blade (most imprtant, right? You won't find too many "sticks" coming out of Spyderco as we feel that shape, while very flexible, is not as safe and controllable as a handle with form.....but, the form must fit.

They are not good enough until the design team agrees they're good enough. Many models have been held up in production refining these key isues.

sal

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Continual refinement is our evolutionary obligation to humankind.

 

[Senate]

you want ergos, buy a Manix!

 

[Sal Glesser]

STR - nice job. I've been watching the progress.

sal

 

[STR]

Thanks Sal. I had hoped that what I did to my "Salt 2" didn't bother you in any way.

This is the first brand new knife I've actaully torn into like this. Usually I had an old 'retired' one that someone was attatched to at one time in the past or wanted saved and had what I deemed proper justification since the warranty was no longer an issue. That and I have a guy that wants me to rebuild his old retired Delica and I had never done a Spyderco before. I guess you could call this my practice run.

Anyway I appreciate the feedback. Oh and BTW. Look for a private message here shortly. I have a couple questions I want to ask you. Get back to me when it is convenient for you. Thanks

 

[gull wing]

STR, nice job on the wood handle, like it much.
I re-handled a Caly Jr to textured G10.

 

[STR]

Gullwing> show us. I like seeing custom work. It makes one feel better to embellish their personal carry knife. At least that is my take on it. I don't have a knife in my EDC routine that isn't tweaked in one way or another to personalize it. If I didn't make it from scratch I added or changed something to fit my taste in one way or another. Its what I do.

 

[senoBDEC]

Yeah, gotta agree it's tough. For instance: Dodo works well in saber and the utility grips (see Spyderco's forum - can't find the topic for the life of me) but horrible for me in "gorilla/hammer grip" both tip up and tip down, edge out. It's that last choil for the pinky, I get stuck inbetween. Otherwise, great utility handle.

 

[Carl64]

The current Delica handle (same as Salt 1) was never my absolute favorite either. I like a little index finger dip like the Calypso Jr or a deep choil like a Native. BUT, when I just grab the Delica and cut something, it works out well enough anyway. I think of it as good enough for functional use, if not perfect. For me, the high points of the Delica/Salt1 are the size (just right IMO), opener hole position, good steel, slim pocket-able design, and light weight.

 

[HoB]

I also prefer the Caly Jr. over the Delica by a large margin, but the Delica is ok...especially for smaller hands.

 

[Lee48]

Human beings are adaptable. Sometimes things "just doesn't feel right" at first and later they begin to grow on you. Or not. Human beings are also not predictable.