A Tale Of Two Knives - LB-7 & LB-8

Codger_64

Codger_64

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Tonight I narrated my "playtime" with a couple of knives. I hope that my examination of the knives to guestimate their production dates will help some of you to do the same with some of your NIB knives.


Here are two knives I would like to examine, an LB-7 and an LB-8 of the same approximate vintage. Both came in the gray/black "Sharp Idea" boxes with the cutler logo over SCHRADE CUTLERY over Built To Last A Lifetime. Having surveyed the Schrade catalogs for logo introductions, this tells us the following:

The cutler logo was introduced after Baer bought Imperial and formed Imperial Schrade Corp. circa 1984. It first appears on the cover of the 1985 short line catalog along with the changed name in stylized text SCHRADE CUTLERY and addressed as a Div. of Imperial Schrade Corp. In the 1984 catalog, the company was referred to by the older post 1972 name of Schrade Cutlery Corp and addressed as a "Div. Of Imperial Knife Assoc. Co.

The slogan Built To Last A Lifetime is first seen on the 1990 catalog cover.

The text on the box ends is nearly the same for the two...

LB7
Bear Paw
Lockback

LB8
Papa Bear
Lockback

While the pattern identifier on the LB8 box bar code complies with the box ends, the identifier on the LB7 adds a "-", "LB-7". Confusing, because most of the catalogs don't use the "-".

Opening the boxes and retrieving the paperwork, we see the carmine loss claim certificate for the LB7 does use the "-", as does the orange claim certificate for the LB8. So I guess that either way was acceptible to Schrade.

Both boxes contain the gray insert #7007180263 which has the "personal message from the President", Walter Gardiner. It has no mention of a website as do papers from circa June of 1998 when the schradeknives.com website launched (it can still be viewed if you are interested). The telltale, clearest "earliest possible" date on both of these inserts is the copyright date of 1991. As both knives were obtained from retailers from existing old stock, I am confident that the knives, sheaths and accompanying boxes and papers are as shipped from Schrade when produced.

Both knives are also wrapped in the protective coated paper, Daubert Uniwrap A inside their sheaths. The sheaths look the same until you look closely and compare them side-by-side in detail. They were obviously made on different forms and from slightly different patterns. One is slightly longer than the other, and more rounded on the bottom. One has a plain SCHRADE impressed snap of so-so quality in it's imprint, and the other is a very crisp, clear stamping. The backing of that one inside she sheath is marked "Scovill Co." The backs of both sheaths are unmarked except for a small cartouche which I had not noticed before. One is an "O" and the other a "V".

I know that patterns and dies for the sheaths were in the in-house sheath department when the closing occurred in 2004, but I have no idea when they began making their own sheaths, or what percentage of their own sheaths they made, and how many outside vendors made sheaths for them. Several leather and/or sheath vendors were listed as owed money in the bankruptcy proceedings. In my modest box of sheaths, I note that half are unmarked, and half have the "V" mark. They were purchased as a lot post-closing. One pre-1985 LB7 sheath NIB has the "O" mark.

I am satisfied that both the LB7 and LB8 were produced and shipped between 1991 and 1998. I see no indicators on the knives themselves to further narrow the dates. Neither has been serialized, both bear the UH signature on their tangs.

Michael
 
Were you after some pics of an LB8 Michael? I have have and LB8 elk foundation I think I have the original box also. Im not sure if mine is an early one or not though? Surely someone here on forum would have one?
Regards Tim
 
Tim, I am almost always on the lookout for good pictures of knives. I certainly can't afford to buy a representative sampling of NIB knives in every pattern I research. I have done that over the years with several patterns and it got darned expensive pretty quickly. I have a camera, but not the skill to take good quality photos such as some of you do. My scanner lacks the depth of field needed for knives, but will do the boxes and papers.

I only have the one LB8, recently acquired. It would be good to be able to get one of each generational variant such as I did with the LB7, but even good photos of those LB8's and their boxes and papers will suffice. Any photos and permission to use them would be greatly appreciated.

Michael
 
I have a LB8, serial number 81562, if you would like a picture of it.
I think this was a white box with letters, haven't looked at it in a while.....
 
Let me know if you would like any specific pictures. I have this one complete, and an LB7 in white box with serial number, likely same as Mountainwind.

LB8.jpg
 
So far, with the few I have looked at here and elsewhere, I can determine a few rough details of the production. The first LB8 were the "DIXIE EDITION/COLLECTION" knives paired with matching etched and serialized 144UH, and most of them had LB7 tang stamps, SCHRADE+ marked without the UH Signature on the stamp. First production knives came in the brown leathergrain boxes, then the white boxes, then the gray/black "Sharp Idea" boxes. I've not seen enough to narrow down when the LB7 blades were peppered back into the production. We do know when they were first put into the catalogs and dropped from the catalogs (thanks to Robert Clemente). Production records show that they were still shipped for a while (in minor amounts) for a while after that, and a few years before the catalog appearance. Does anyone have one NIB in the later bluestripe or even later flag box or clampacks?
 
thawk said:
Let me know if you would like any specific pictures. I have this one complete, and an LB7 in white box with serial number, likely same as Mountainwind.

LB8.jpg
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Excellent! Mine matches this one in included box. papers, etc. Can you read the backside of the snap on the sheath (the inside half of the male part on the sheath, not the flap) and is there a "cartouche'" on the right rear of the sheath above the stitching?

About half of the lot of LB7/LB8 sheaths I bought from the closing had the anti-corrosion sheets inserted into them. It would be interesting also to learn just when they began using these.
 
Nothing on the male (plug-in) part of the snap.

S M CO. is stamped around the center on the pile side of the closure snap on the back of the flap (female).

smco.jpg
 
SMCO is another mark of Scovill Manufacturing Company, I believe. Their history goes way back pre-civil war and marked fasteners can be found among recovered artifacts of camps and battlefields. I have no idea who supplied the unmarked ones, the the Scovill marked ones seem to me to be of higher quality. Atcheson Leather was one of their sheath suppliers.
 
Interesting tidbit of info about the snap. This one is a very nice sheath, with a rich brown-red color. I have others in the same shape, that seem to be a little thinner and stiffer.
 
Compare the logo imprints on the flaps and you will see what I mean about there being two or more dies used to stamp these. My sheath with the Scovill snap has the slightly larger, slightly better quality die stamp.
 
Heres mine, I remmember when I purchased it I had a friend look it up for me and he said it was worth about $140 to $150 with that etch, that was a surprise as they dont fetch anywhere near that on ebay. I dont know what book it was now. Anyway here it is.
Regards Tim

CopyofIMG_5690.jpg


IMG_5693.jpg
 
Great pictures! These knives are easy on the eyes, aren't they? Even if they are heavy in the hand and pocket.

$150? If he got that value from a book, it points to one of the major problems with the price guides. Suggested values are all over the map, and even when spot-on are quickly outdated. I don't doubt that Schrade knives such as this one sold for double or more in Australia at that time as compared to the U.S. with differences in currency and duties taken into account. And RMEF probably got a part of the premium added to the base MSRP even here as a donation to their elk restoration fund.

This knife, from what we can see of the box and papers, jives with the two mentioned above time-wise. I've seen the earlier ones in the brown woodgrain boxes, then the white boxes, and then these "Sharp Idea" boxes. I'll look thru my files to see if I can find the order for the RMEF version.
Thanks!:thumbup:

Michael
 
Yes Im sure your right, I also think it would be over priced at that, I think collectors often have a better more realistc idea of prices if they are careful. I think I would get maybe $80 to $100 in Australia if I was lucky at the moment, more a few years ago.

While we are on the subject of prices I saw a knife sell a few months ago on ebay for just under $190 that same knife has sold as part of a set of 4 knives. This set has sold for $10,000 dollars previously. Of the set of 4 it was the most valuable knife in the set.

I was lucky I had some rare inside knowledge (not from a book) on what the knife was really worth. Does that mean it was really only worth $190 because it sold for only $190? No of course not because I am certain that it would be highly unlikley that others would have been aware of the same info regarding its true worth.

No I didnt get the knife, seller would only sell to USA.:(
 
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Timstools said:
...what the knife was really worth... its true worth.
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This is a very interesting subject and one I am faced with more often than I like. I usually refuse to give values on knives. What is a knife worth? Does it really have value in and of itself? Or is the value of a knife embedded in what the last few observed in the public market sold for?

I've watched "values" (selling prices) of several brandings and several particular patterns of Schrades closely for about four or five years now. On some, I kept very detailed records of every knife of that pattern transacted. I've read the "Price Guides" and noted how quickly they become outdated. I've watched the popularity of Schrade collecting surge and ebb. But still I have to think that the knives themselves have a base value as curios and ...users, and anything they fetch beyond that is due to competitiveness between collectors vying for the same example. How many times have we seen a relatively common knife sell for two or three times it's normal selling price, while the next two or three identical examples go begging?

Sometimes they don't even garner enough interest to much more than top their original retail selling price. That Sears Craftsman Hollow Ground Chrome Vanadium (whew!) butcher knife I just bought originally sold in the late 1940's for about the same $2 I gave for it fifty years later, new, unused, in the original blade sleeve. So does that mean the knife is worth only $2 now? Or does it mean that there was no market demand for it among collectors of Craftsman knives, housewives, chefs etc.?

Michael
 
Yes its a fickle affair. I saw a knife the same as this one beolw in pick sell for well over $600 US dollars on ebay auction a few years ago. Probably because Schrade decided to put "Custom Made " etch on the blade on what is really a regular production knife and the poor buyer may have got duped.

Sometimes its just that the right buyer is not there at the right time, Ive searched for years for a knife and a few will just slip through the net and Im sure many would have sold for even double at auction if those that really wanted them had been watching at the right time.

Still amazing that this one sold for that much though i had an experienced collector value them at around $125 which sound much more realistic.
Regards Tim

These knives are easy on the eyes, aren't they?
Click to expand...
The LB8s They sure are, there one of my favourites, really very nice.


IMG_5703.jpg
 
The SCM7 is a good example. In 1984, the MSRP was $85.00. At that time, the MSRP of the standard LB7 was $42.95. The differences between the two, other than the packaging, were that the SCM7 added the blade etch, designs on the bolsters, and the fancier die-stamped pouch sheath. Schrade catalogs said the bolsters were "Engraved", but if you'll look closely, I believe they were simply die stamped with that design included in the die, not engraved by removing material by hand or machine. It does make for an attractive design. But was it, at the time of issue (c. 1984-86) worth nearly double the base knife? Would I purchase one for original MSRP today? Yes. If I were in the market for one. The original MSRP of $85 in 1985 dollars would be $163.79 in 2007 dollars. Yes, the dollar has depreciated that much. The value of most Schrade knives has not even kept up with inflation. IMHO, buying knives at their last wholesale value is a better deal. Yeah, I have had the "gotta have it" too, and paid premiums for knives. I think we all have at one time or another.

Michael
 
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