A View of the Gunting from a Different Perspective

Joined
Nov 25, 1998
Messages
12,632
While there have been many reviews of Bram Frank's new Gunting self-defense system by way of Spyderco from the points of view of the martial artist or self-defense enthusiast, I am here giving you an impression of the Gunting as a simple tool from the point of view of a dedicated non-violent type. As a Quaker-by-convincement and one who is too bound up with arthritis to be able to be very active in a fight situation, I have two reasons not to be viewing any knife that I carry as a weapon but as a tool. Also, I work in a federal office in Washington, DC, a very restrictive environment where blades are concerned. They humor my eccentricity, but they have made it clear that the law in DC is 3" blades and that I had best abide by it.

So, I have been in the market for a rather specialized knife. This knife would have a large grip so that I might be more able to hold it, something that most 3" knives lack as they size the grips to the blade. I also need a large openning arrangement, hole or stud, so that my stiff fingers may manipulate it. Small knives such as the Mini-Dyad won't do. Finally, I do need the 3" blade. Well, I looked at the specs on the Gunting and it seemed to be perfect, but, boy, was it weird to look at. I really wanted to hold one before committing to pay for it. After some two months of looking, sending emails, and posting here, Terry Prichard (bladebroker@email.com) worked out an arrangement with me whereby I could take one on approval, but only if I also bought the vhs tape, "Spyderco Presents The Gunting By Bram Frank". I was somewhat puzzled by that, but the price was right and the terms were good, so I agreed and received the Gunting and tape about two weeks ago. Now, on with my imoressions.

First, the tape. It took me until this weekend to get some privacy to watch it, as the rest of my family would heartily disapprove of the whole thing. I now know why Terry was so insistant that I get the tape. Firstly, Bram explains his philosophy behind the system, which did answer one of my more glaring questions. Everyone was talking about all of the features that allow the device to be used as a martial arts assist with the blade closed. This puzzled me, as it seemed to me that pulling a knife, blade open or closed, escalates the confrontation to the level of deadly force, so you might as well open it and use the blade. Bram makes the point on the tape that, if the other person does not have a knife or other weapon, slicing him up leads to many legal and ethical complications that you don't need, so the Gunting gives you an option short of that to be used in subduing him. And, if you do need to open it quickly, he shows how to use the extra tall ramps over the hole for a "kinetic openning" where you whack the ramp on your opponent's arm or hand and pull it down or up sharply, as the case may be. This will snap the blade open. This brings up the other point of the movie for me. He uses a red knife trainer to show you how this is done and how you may practice these opennings on yourself. But he is very clear in his warning that you should NEVER practice these opennings with a live knife, for you will assuredly wind up slicing your hand or your arm. He says that he did it and he believes that you will as well. He also is very clear that you should never do a kinetic openning on your leg, as the leg is too wide and you wll surely slice your pants and. most likely, your leg as well. The rest of the movie is a series of demonstrations of arm-bars and take-downs using the Gunting, all good stuff if you are familiar with the basic steps and with, say, a kuboton.

Now to the knife, for that is what it is to me. The blade is stated as 2 7/8", but mine measures exactly 3" from the end of the scales to the tip. The 2 7/8" is from the beginning of the cutting edge. Well, most cops that I have seen measure a knife measure it from the scales to the tip, so I would count on that measurement. The hilt is just under 5 1/4" long, with several flares that are designed into it for striking purposes. These are also very good swells to index your fingers. This grip is a full handful and very ergonomic in the bargain. I like it. I would like the clip placed higher up on the hilt so that the knife would ride deeper, but I suspect that the reason that it is set where it is is to allow easy access to the knife when under stress. That I understand, given the knife's primary purpose. I should like the ramp smaller, but I have already explained part of the reason for its size. The other part is that it can also be used as a hammer against your opponent's hand or arm, and with good effect, as Bram shows on the tape. I would, however, suggest that the hole might be made larger and that the inner edges of it be chamfered or someyhing so that they are not so sharp. Or is there a reason for the sharpness? The blade and the hilt combine in a very useful shape for many of my utility chores. and the ramps do allow for greater force to be exerted if necessary. I am uncertain if this is for the best in the long run, as pushing really hard on a knife is a sign that it needs sharpening or that you are doing something wrong and are about to lose control of your knife, frequently with disastrous results.

I am very interested in how people see my views of the Gunting, so please, I welcome questions and feedback on this.

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Walk in the Light,
Hugh Fuller
 
Hugh, I agree with you one hundred percent about the Gunting. I too would like a larger hole (like one the Military). I would guess that the reason for the sharp edges on the hole is to aid in "thumb retention" when opening. I believe Bram has also stated that the hump is the primary opening method. I like it because it's easy to open while wearing gloves; just use a finger or two to snap it open. All in all, I'm very happy with mine, as a tool, a weapon, and a conversation piece -- "Hey, check out how I can open this on my desk!" or "Hey, check out this really cool lock!"
 
That reminds me. Usually, I can figure how a lock works pretty easily. The rolling lock and the axis were no great problem, but this compression lock, hmmmm. It seems to be a sort of liner lock, but moved to the back of the knife, and I am damned if I can see how it works, but work it certainly does! I cannot seem to get it to release involuntarily, no matter how I have tried.

------------------
Walk in the Light,
Hugh Fuller

[This message has been edited by FullerH (edited 01-14-2001).]
 
The compression lock works by putting a piece of metal between the blade and a stop pin. To close the blade you would literally have to compress the metal, hence the name. So yeah, it's like a liner lock in mechanics, but the function is stronger.
 
Hugh,

I have been patiently waiting to hear your final impressions of the Gunting. I was prepared for either outcome. Since your review of it is almost exclusively positive it must have found a new home. I hope it serves you well for years to come.

I want to thank you for taking the time to place your thoughts here for others to share. This is how we all benefit from our investment of time spent on the forum.

It is a pleasure doing business with you.

Sincerely

Terry Prichard aka the bladebroker
 
Terry, you knew a week ago that I was satisfied with the knife, as I told you that it was a keeper. I hope that you had not been holding the MO until now.

Yes, I am very positive about the knife for my purposes. My only nits at which to pick are the result of my using it for a purpose for which it was not intended. Whose fault is that? My fault, obviously, so I make no beefs at Bram or at Spyderco. They produced a purpose built device and I am adaptng it for a different purpose, and that is on my head, not their's.

Actually, now that I am looking at the nits from a "fish or cut bait" point of view, I am wondering about posting a request to see if any of the knife modifiers out there would care to undertake a small customization job for me. Are there any takers? I am thinking of having the hole chamferred and the clip remounted further up the scale, if possible.

------------------
Walk in the Light,
Hugh Fuller

[This message has been edited by FullerH (edited 01-17-2001).]
 
There is a pic floating around of the cutaway version of a Gunting that really shows off the compression lock. Not sure on the exact URL, but I'm sure someone has it. You can also find it if you look on the Spyderco tech forum.
 
Here's the open-faced trainer pic.

Spyderco-Gunting-openfacetrainer.jpg


------------------
Cerulean

"We cut things to create things" - J.K.M.
 
The hole is actually very big..LOL.. the size of the Military hole i special..The GUNTING hole is as big as the biggest SPYDIES out there,,again, Military aside...

As for the edges? no intention of the hole edgeds being sharp..They are just not finished..they are cut by a laser..thats where a custom knife would come in..custom finishing...No spydie has rounded hole edges..ROFL..I'm sorry if they are too sharp..I'm sure they can be rounded off a touch...REMEMBER its CPM440V..its very very tough...
hmm speaking of custom GUNTINGs..there are several in the works...

Future DRONES will have rounded edges on the blade as well..The CRMIPT will have horns and the current DRONE Blade..

If the clip was higher up Hugh, the ramp would be INSIDE one's pocket and it won't pul out..Try a custom kydex holster from SKUNKWORKS...

DIRECT from the SPYDERCO SPEC SHEET: Tip of knife to the highest point on the scales is 2 7/8ths or 74mm...(REALLY......)
overall length is 5 7/16ths or 131 mm...
cutting edge is 2 3/4 or 71mm...

Hugh.. I'm not sure if your fingers will let you but we can open and close the knife at will all within the flow of using it..

Its a great utility knife..NEMO uses it that weay..LOL..( hmm is that Vince cringing in he corner over there?)
I don't understand your post of greater force to be exerted... it is a sign of a dull knife for sharp knives need no pushing and you'd lose control..
no ramps are there for greater pushing with a dull knife..LOL..the blade is SPYDERCO Sharp and CPM440V..its not getting dull very quickly..ramp is whee HOLE is..thers an upper and lower ramp.there are upe horns and lower horns... the handle is designed to allow for control..

so I still don't understand that part of your posting...
no problemo...


Anyways.. You got my email BEFORE I read this..As i said good or bad thank you for posting & taking the time to review the tape and the knife..

and thank you for all the kind comments..
Yes..by the way.I'll keep in mind what you said ...
 
Hugh - interesting and informative post. Thanks. I believe someone in a way early post was wondering of they could shuck oysters and rabbits with the Gunting - wonder how they're doing?
 
Bram,

I confirm it, the Gunting is really outstanding as a tool knife!
You can hit the horn of the blade with a piece of wood to split wood without any risk to harm the handle !!
I wonder how Jeff Randall would use the Gunting in his virgin forest !

I am sure he would be astonished by the potential of that knife !

Off course these days I am using my (new) Military a lot and guess what , I am now using the Militay closed à la Gunting !!!
LOL !

cheeres,
JM
 
Nemo..have you seen Caliber Magazine? from Germany?/ great GUNTING article...
EXCALIBER is coming out with it next issue..

I will be at IWA.. I hope..will you?
I need to talk to you of the Gunting in the Jet Li film...
Hows Fred?
Vinve cringes at how you use the GUNTING..LOL
Thanks my friend!!!!!!!!!!

 
"The blade and the hilt combine in a very useful shape for many of my utility chores. and the ramps do allow for greater force to be exerted if necessary. I am uncertain if this is for the best in the long run, as pushing really hard on a knife is a sign that it needs sharpening or that you are doing something wrong and are about to lose control of your knife, frequently with disastrous results."

Bram, in the above two sentences, what I was trying to say was that, for utility work, the ramps on the back of the blade can be used to apply greater force to the blade, but that applying greater force is not usually a good idea. This is the case because, if blade is sharp enough, as Spydercos are when they come from the factory (understatement of the year!) and you are using the proper cutting procedures, such as a draw cut rather than a push cut, you should not need to apply great pressure. The flip side of this is that, if you are having to apply great pressure, then you are either using improper cutting procedure or you are using a knife that has grown dull, or, God forbid, both. My Dad always taught me that this was the major cause of hurting yourself with a knife, this and just plain dumb carelessness, and I have cocluded that he was correct. If the knife is dull, it frequently slips and, if you have a lot of pressure on it, it frequently winds up cutting you. With an improper procedure, the same usually happens. So, Bram, the comment was not a slam at the knife but a warning to maintain it and to use it correctly, just as you tell folks to be cautious about how you practice kinetic opennings.

And, yes, I can manipulate it very well in my hand, that is one of the reasons that I opted for it. The size is just right for my still hands. However, I shouldn't want to open oysters with it w/o some sort of extreme protection for my hands, especially the one holding the oyster, as I have had oyster knives slip many, many time doing this chore and the thought of what a razor sharp Gunting would do to my hand gives me the shakes.

------------------
Walk in the Light,
Hugh Fuller
 
AHHHHHHH BACH! and which episode of MASH is that from?......????????

No Hugh I never took it as a slam.. Ijust couldn't follow what you wrote..chaulk it up to SHOT SHOW tiredness and Jet Fatigue...

Ok I get it..Hugh..look at the ramps not as excuses to apply GREATER pressure but to apply distintive, accurate, delicate pressure as you want or need it...rather
like extended dexterity tools...

You see its SPYDERCO Sharp so pushing a DULL blade never comes to mind..its not hair popping sharp? well then use a SPYDERCO SHARPMAKER..now its hair popping sharp again..

 
"I can see clearly now, the rain has gone" or some such thing. Yeah, extra dexterity ramps, I LOVE it. ROFLMAO!!!

------------------
Walk in the Light,
Hugh Fuller
 
Bram,

I am so sorry to hurt Vince Fellings...
I will try to only use the Gunting in the way it has been designed ;D

I hate violence but I love to defend myself ! ;D

Remember De Niro in Taxi Driver... everynight, handling my Gunting I do the same in front of the Mirror !

Vince are you feeling better now?
wink.gif


cheers,
JM
 
Nemo, you make me nervous! Stop that! :-)

Hey, guys, this was my 1600th post. How time, and posts, fly when you're havin' fun.

------------------
Walk in the Light,
Hugh Fuller

[This message has been edited by FullerH (edited 01-17-2001).]
 
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