ABS Cutting Competition, Damascus, Performance Issues... Please contribute....

Marion David Poff

Marion David Poff

Joined
Oct 8, 1998
Messages
5,403
So.

I was talking to a forum member, and I asked him about damascus, in particular it's performance characteristics.

And he said, something like this....

"Well, you know that ABS Cutting Competition they hold every year, have you ever heard of someone taking a damascus blade, or even a damascus blade winning?"

And this got me thinking...

Is it open to production knives, if so, will someone dare take a production knife to the competition?

Anyone have first hand empirical information about pattern-welded, wootx or other steel of this kind being better than steel in the performance arena, cutting and toughness?

Any related issues you would like to bring up?

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Thank you,
Marion David Poff aka Eye, Cd'A ID, USA mdpoff@hotmail.com

"We will either find a way, or make one." Hannibal, 210 B.C.
 
Poff, In the Nov. 99 issue of Blade is an article by B.R. Hughes discussing the performance issues of Damascus vs carbon steel. Hughes discussed the issue with Michael Conner, Jerry Fisk, Keith Kilby, Roger Massey and Bill Moran. Their opinions are very interesting and to make a long story short, to a man they consider both to be equal with respect to performance. This of course assuming the Damascus is properly made. They find the only real issue to be cost. Personally I am a Damascus NUT!
Rs
Don
 
Hmmm... what was that test that Cold Steel's Damascus Tanto won (that they claimed)? Was that ABS or something?

Dan
 
The International Cutting Competition that is held on the last day of the Spring and Fall hammer-in at Washington, Ark. has been mostly the event of Jerry Fisk. He spends night after sleepless night trying to devise ways to test every aspect of construction of a knife. This includes slicing cigarette paper, business cards, chopping cans and phone books in half, dropping apples from a specified height for penetration to determine the edge geometry, to cutting 2X4 lumber in a timed event. There has been damascus blades entered in the competition as well as almost all of the available carbon blades.
Since it is an American Bladesmith Society event, the knives must be forged and of a specified design or length for that particular event. The race is not always won by the swift. Many of the tests involve knowing how to make the cut the fastest or best. All rolled or chipped edges are automatically disqualified from winning but you can still play the game. Since no one knows what the cutting events will be until time to cut, luck has a little to do with winning. Being strong, quick, and experience all play a part of getting to be no. 1. It is indeed a fun partaking and is enjoyed by participate and onlooker alike. I have been in several and have had a great time.


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Ray Kirk
http://www.tah-usa.net/raker
 
MR. Poff
In the cutting competetion that we have at the ABS school all knives are allowed in providing you made it. The only one I can think of that we have not had in is a forged stainless blade. I was really looking forward to that but the one we almost had in had to cancel 1 hour before due to an emergency at home. We have had about all other types of forgable steel entered. We have had damascus but not a lot. Some folks are spooky of putting that much time in on the steel and maybe losing the blade. When we announce at the time of the event who is cutting and the lineup we also announce at that time what steels they are using.This way everyone learns.
The test are not intentional rough so we do not set out to destroy their blades. All test are things that are resonable if the maker knew what he was doing when making said blade. However we do lose some blades each event.
Several people contribute their ideals but if they do they are not allowed to enter that time. For instance the can cut came from Murray Carter from Japan that was his brain child and a good one it was.
Like Ray said sometimes the event may not test the knife but the maker. They are forced to use their brain to make the best/wisest cut possible to accomplish the task. Again, I think that is reasonable. If you are lost or out in the bush for a bit of time you want to conserve you edge as much as possible so you make the best/wisest cut.
We have only had one event that has not been accomplished yet. And it is a brain thing cut. But some of the events have been tough. We have several retired people do quite well so we do not rely on strength for the cuts. That would be unfair. We will be having another event at the end of April I believe. If you have anymore questions I will be happy to answer them.
 
fisk,

Has a damascus blade ever won or made a significant showing?

What do you think of the performance of damascus?

Given a choice between a pattern-welded/wootz blade and a plain steel blade to take out into the unknown wilderness and rely on, which would you take, regardless of price....

And then the same question, but factoring in the cost of damascus....

------------------
Thank you,
Marion David Poff aka Eye, Cd'A ID, USA mdpoff@hotmail.com

"We will either find a way, or make one." Hannibal, 210 B.C.
 
MR. Poff
A Damascus came in second in the competetion. It would have taken first place but he had left the blade a little hard on the Rc. If the blade had been a bit softer it would have sliced better. It was probally about 62-63 hardness. As I mentioned earlier most guys do not want to put that much time in on the making of the steel and chance losing it or they want to finish it and sell it. Personally I would have no problem using it if I were able to enter. Some of the test were set up and tried before hand [the test needs to be tough but passable so I make sure it can be done] at my shop using a damascus blade. What ever I have in the shop ready to test before finishing and selling is what I set the test up with as long as it falls within the guidelines of the requirements of dimensions.

Given the choice between wootz and carbon I would prefer carbon at this point. I have never gotten to test wootz. I have asked but no one has let me test one. I keep hearing all of this stories about how great it is supposed to be. I also hear stories about how the government has my best interest in mind too. Since I have no reliable first hand knowledge I would choose carbon. As far as carbon over damascus in the bush there would be no difference other than the outlay of cash for purchase. Damascus might have a bit of advantage in the fact that when you were lost and depressed you could pull your damascus knife out and say, Dang that is pretty and entertain yourself looking at it.

I have tested many blades of both carbon and damascus to and including the point of destruction. I've cut metal, wood, flesh about anything that you would normally need to cut including some things you should not cut. If they are done right there should be no difference.
jf
 
MR. Poff
Another important thing I forgot to mention is the carbon content of the damascus and if the damascus bears pure nickle.
Damascus with pure nickle in the cutting edge is no better than a soup can to cut with. Nickle will not harden so you blade will "gap" each place pure nickle touches the cutting edge. Some makers do use this unfortuately because it "looks good".
Always get damascus with at least .6 carbon as well.
 
The pure nickle will also be harder to forge in my experience because of the oxide that is formed when heating. I have stopped using the pure nickel for anything what will be on the edge. I got so tired of sharpening a twisted damascus folder that I gave it to my son. They do look pretty though.

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Ray Kirk
http://www.tah-usa.net/raker
 
Ok,

Mr Fisk.

If I was going to buy a Damascus billet to have a knife made, who should I buy it from?

Who are the guys with the best performing Damascus?

Who are the guys with the best deals in Damascus? Say a 50% reduction in price with only a 10% reduction in performance.

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Thank you,
Marion David Poff aka Eye, Cd'A ID, USA mdpoff@hotmail.com

"We will either find a way, or make one." Hannibal, 210 B.C.
 
Mr. Poff
Tim Zowada makes good damascus billets for sale. I think Tim Foster makes a bit for sale. Either of these guys stuff would perform well providing it was heat treated and tempered correct.
There are a lot of other smiths that make good damascus but only for their own knives. And I am sure that I am missng someone that I have seen their work in use and am just not being able to remember it right now.
The best performing damascus I have seen is the combination of 15N20 and 1084. A good number of smiths have began using this combo.I have used 15N20 and 5160 with good results but prefer the first combo. I have used about everything I could as combos to try most perform satisfactory as long as the carbon content is up. Personally I prefer the combo of two high carbons. Good performance and good etch.
Both of the guys mentioned above I have seen how their pieces work in the field.
Not sure on prices.
 
Mr. Fisk I got a question I bought a couple of damascus knives at a local show. The maker was Chuck Hawes. I bought the knives mainly because I liked the looks and price, But I didn't think they would hold a good edge. The main reason I thought that was because they were made with 192 layer random 1095-203e. Now these were the first damascus knives I bought so I don't have a lot to compare them to. But when compared to my carbon steel knives they compare very good. They are not the best but they are not bad either. How come they can even compare with the carbon steel knives. 203e only has about .2% carbon it it. Oh and the carbon steel blade are good ones too, at least they are made but big name guys.:0 TIA

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-Greg Johnson
ICQ#4236341

 
Greg
The damascus you purchased was 203E adn 1095. The 1095 has .95 carbon and assume the 203E has .02 carbon. He had 192 layers so he most likely used 3 pieces to begin with. I would say that he would have used two pieces of 1095 on the outsides and the 203E on the inside. The most common sizes the steels mentioned comes is 1/4" thickness. The end result is you should have come up with approx. .62 carbon which is in the spring steel range and should hold up well if properly heat treated and tempered, and it sounds like it was. The advantage of adding 203E or 15N20 is that it has nickle which helps "toughen" up the blade a bit. The reason I prefer the 15N20 is that you get the same amount of nickle but your carbon content is .75. This is just my personal choice.

I have to back up a bit on my last post. I am not sure what Tim Zowada is using now for his materials but whatever it is will be good. Tim is one of those you do not have to worry about it it will work well or it does not go out the door.

I will be happy to answer any questions you guys have. I'll even point you to a maker who does good work at a fair price if you would like. I'm easy. Not cheap, but easy.
jf
I will be
 
There is much more room for human error in damascus. The good makers will take all efforts to provide a truly premium piece of damascus, but ive seen makers selling pieces with occlusions and what i call a "whisker" which appears to be a crack where perhaps the weld didnt take well and the etching process brings out.

I like damascus, really.....but i dont see how there could be any true performance advantage (all other things equal) over plain carbon steel.

Also, on the ABS cutting competition, i think that if there were a cutting advantage with damascus makers would show up with damascus no matter if it took them some extra hours to build. Im sure the satisfaction and other benefits of being the ABS cutting champion would make those few extra hours seem really enjoyable ;-)

On purchasing damascus billets- Tim wife Bonnie just had there 4th child a few months back, so Tims way busy...but he may have something around.

I would also call John Fitch, he recently did some mosaic damascus that was visually appealing and John always focuses on performance.

Matt.
 
I am fired up about this.

Damascus, the mythical material. And I can have a decent knife made of it.

Well, it will only be a couple months til I have some dough....

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Thank you,
Marion David Poff aka Eye, Cd'A ID, USA mdpoff@hotmail.com

"We will either find a way, or make one." Hannibal, 210 B.C.
 
Well what about the guy I talked about. Chuck Hawes. I know he sell it I have seen his name in knife mags where knifemakers were using his stuff. And for what I paid for finished knives I bet his damascus is very reasonably priced. His address is

Chuck Hawes
P.O Box 176
Weldon, IL 61882
ph#(217)736-2479

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-Greg Johnson
ICQ#4236341



[This message has been edited by gregj62 (edited 02-09-2000).]
 
Is there any performance advantage of wire cable over welded billets? Michael Bell, the maker of Japanese swords is a believer that a cable welded blade being superior to one with homogenous steel.
 
Goat
The cable as per Michael Bell is another story. No body as got cable to perform as he has. As I am understanding it you need a particluar cable weld it up a certain way, as explained to me no other way. Then is must be water quenchedd with clay etc. This really interests me cause it is supposed to dulipicate the performance and appearnce of the traditional Japanese steels. Currently I have my first 2 billets welded up with this. They ended up with approx 11,000 pieces. I will be working toward this in the next months ahead. I have a hunter forged now and ready to quench in March. Thought I would start small.
The draw back to regular damascus buyers it will not have a bold pattern. The steel will have a watering to it but no big type patterns. This may be a culitvated taste to some and others may get right on it. I am interested for its performance. Not many people will probally do this as the market will be small and the price probally a bit higher as it involves much more work. Should be just the ticket for me though.
 
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