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ABS policy regarding established foreign smiths?
- Thread starter Joss
- Start date
Joss,
I think that the rules are that it is a 3 year apprenticeship or 2 years and the introductory class to knifemaking at Washington, Ark before you can apply for your journeyman smith stamp. Then it is 2 years after you acquire the JS stamp before you can apply for your mastersmith stamp. The time is started when you join the American Bladesmith Society, not how long you have been making knives. As far as I know, this would apply to any one that joined, regardless of skill or time making knives.
I hope this helps.
I think that the rules are that it is a 3 year apprenticeship or 2 years and the introductory class to knifemaking at Washington, Ark before you can apply for your journeyman smith stamp. Then it is 2 years after you acquire the JS stamp before you can apply for your mastersmith stamp. The time is started when you join the American Bladesmith Society, not how long you have been making knives. As far as I know, this would apply to any one that joined, regardless of skill or time making knives.
I hope this helps.
- Joined
- Mar 31, 1999
- Messages
- 839
Joss
Everyone must go through the same process so that it is equal to everyone.
Who is to decide that this overseas smith is good enough and that one is not. Why stop at overseas smiths then, some of our own smiths would holler unfair and it would be. This keeps the playing field level for everyone.
Everyone must go through the same process so that it is equal to everyone.
Who is to decide that this overseas smith is good enough and that one is not. Why stop at overseas smiths then, some of our own smiths would holler unfair and it would be. This keeps the playing field level for everyone.
- Joined
- Oct 25, 1999
- Messages
- 184
actually i wondered the same sort of thing recently.
i was curious as to whether or not if i attended a class for bladesmithing that was run by a MS of the ABS, whether or not that would count as though i went to the 'intro to bladesmithing' class.
i know that there is no chance that i am going to be able to make it to the states and to a class ..
but it is possible for me to get to a MS's class here ..
though i do understand the idea of keeping things fiar and i agree to them totally... i just wondered if this could be considered a fairer way of alloting time limits.. rather than people further from the bladesmithing school being disadvantaged.
but i would be happy if i just got something from the ABS after sending in my membership ..
D.
i was curious as to whether or not if i attended a class for bladesmithing that was run by a MS of the ABS, whether or not that would count as though i went to the 'intro to bladesmithing' class.
i know that there is no chance that i am going to be able to make it to the states and to a class ..
but it is possible for me to get to a MS's class here ..
though i do understand the idea of keeping things fiar and i agree to them totally... i just wondered if this could be considered a fairer way of alloting time limits.. rather than people further from the bladesmithing school being disadvantaged.
but i would be happy if i just got something from the ABS after sending in my membership ..
D.
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2001
- Messages
- 7,351
Hey Jerry,
Thanks for your answer. Just to clarify, I wasn't advocating one way or the other. I just felt that it would be to the benefit of the ABS to get top smiths in, worldwide. But I guess it also depends on the ABS' objectives. In fact, that's really the key point. If the goal of the ABS is to remain a US-centered organization, it's less of an issue than if it wants to have more of a global leadership.
Logically, it's hard for good smiths in Europe or Asia to come to the US before they're already well known. That makes it a clear difference between young smiths in the US - who do make a choice - and abroad, who don't have much opportunity to enroll, take the class, test, etc. As to the question of who is to decide, etc, there are certainly ways to establish clear guidelines and limits, etc. I mean, it wouldn't be perfect, but nothing is.
Thanks,
JD
Thanks for your answer. Just to clarify, I wasn't advocating one way or the other. I just felt that it would be to the benefit of the ABS to get top smiths in, worldwide. But I guess it also depends on the ABS' objectives. In fact, that's really the key point. If the goal of the ABS is to remain a US-centered organization, it's less of an issue than if it wants to have more of a global leadership.
Logically, it's hard for good smiths in Europe or Asia to come to the US before they're already well known. That makes it a clear difference between young smiths in the US - who do make a choice - and abroad, who don't have much opportunity to enroll, take the class, test, etc. As to the question of who is to decide, etc, there are certainly ways to establish clear guidelines and limits, etc. I mean, it wouldn't be perfect, but nothing is.
Thanks,
JD
- Joined
- Oct 4, 1998
- Messages
- 4,131
One thing that stood out at the ABS Awards Banquet at Blade last year was the number of JS makers from around the world as well as a new MS in Japan (Murray Carter). It is great to see that international number increasing. I think we are seeing the beginnings of a world wide organization to further the art of the forged blade. As time goes by, I hope that we will find A.B.S Mastersmiths all over the world. (I have a felling some seeds were planted in Brazil this year 
. Limited world wide representation is all I see that makes things more difficult right now other than travel. (Realizing that it can be a huge hurdle.)
One of the things that seems to permeate the A.B.S. as a whole is the willingness of the members to share their knowledge. I can not tell you how many times I have heard the phrase "I would be glad to, but you will have to promise me that you will pass your knowledge on to some one else one day" (or something to that effect). My bets are that they demonstrate a lot more than knife making in those classes just by examples of the membership. I know in my few get to-gethers the atmosphere has been like a "family" atmosphere, if I can humbly use the word Margret Moran used so often.
There may be a desire to help in perpetuating that atmoshere by keeping the schools close to heart so to speak. The last year or two has been interesting in that A.B.S. hammer-ins are poping up in Michigan, New York, California and help me if I have missed one. I do not think it is too long of a strech to think that others will be held in other countries in the future maybe in conjuction with other organizations.
As far as the time rules, there are some excellent makers in the States who have joined after years of making fine knives and the rules are the same for all. I think this is about the only way to keep things nice and even in that area.
Well, that was just the opinion of an Associate Member (collector-supporter) who needs to get his dues in the darn mail before he gets even more embarrassed
. I am just-a learnin' and observin' and the above is only opinion of what I have seen.
. Limited world wide representation is all I see that makes things more difficult right now other than travel. (Realizing that it can be a huge hurdle.)One of the things that seems to permeate the A.B.S. as a whole is the willingness of the members to share their knowledge. I can not tell you how many times I have heard the phrase "I would be glad to, but you will have to promise me that you will pass your knowledge on to some one else one day" (or something to that effect). My bets are that they demonstrate a lot more than knife making in those classes just by examples of the membership. I know in my few get to-gethers the atmosphere has been like a "family" atmosphere, if I can humbly use the word Margret Moran used so often.
There may be a desire to help in perpetuating that atmoshere by keeping the schools close to heart so to speak. The last year or two has been interesting in that A.B.S. hammer-ins are poping up in Michigan, New York, California and help me if I have missed one. I do not think it is too long of a strech to think that others will be held in other countries in the future maybe in conjuction with other organizations.
As far as the time rules, there are some excellent makers in the States who have joined after years of making fine knives and the rules are the same for all. I think this is about the only way to keep things nice and even in that area.
Well, that was just the opinion of an Associate Member (collector-supporter) who needs to get his dues in the darn mail before he gets even more embarrassed
. I am just-a learnin' and observin' and the above is only opinion of what I have seen.Why not dream a little?
Why couldn't the A.B.S. in the future set up satellite classrooms in other countries? Today, doctors here are able to lead a surgery in another country in real time. Why not RENT the hardware you would need, set up a classroom in some smiths shop and teach from Washington, AR to anyone, anywhere? I'm talking about a DSL system, not through the phone lines. You would have virtually no time lapse. You could focus the cameras to inspect anything, when needed.
Of course there would have to be higher tuitions to offset the cost. But think of how many people you could reach.
Just a thought,
Darby
Why couldn't the A.B.S. in the future set up satellite classrooms in other countries? Today, doctors here are able to lead a surgery in another country in real time. Why not RENT the hardware you would need, set up a classroom in some smiths shop and teach from Washington, AR to anyone, anywhere? I'm talking about a DSL system, not through the phone lines. You would have virtually no time lapse. You could focus the cameras to inspect anything, when needed.
Of course there would have to be higher tuitions to offset the cost. But think of how many people you could reach.
Just a thought,
Darby
- Joined
- Oct 25, 1999
- Messages
- 184
steve~
i totally understand about the need for rules that govern .. and especially for rules that govern everyone the same ..
i mean .. just because i live in australia doesnt mean that i want to be given some bonus..
i did join the ABS late last year .. and even if i could .. i would not think to test for JS yet .. not because i dont have faith in my blades or my ability.. but simply because i want to be happy with my work 100% before i start to look for a JS stamp.
i am in no rush .. im young and i know i have a lot to learn... but i also have time.
i did not wait all my life to come into this occupation only to rush into it out of ignorance and egotism.
any organisation that seeks to further the forging of blades is a good one in my books .. but if the goal of the organisation is to spread the knowledge .. then i would think that it would not only promote the classes that are held at the bladesmithing school .. but promote the learning overall.
that way it becomes a goal to teach an art .. not coax people to move closer to the bladesmithing school,...
that was my teeny tiny point.
but like i said .. i have nothing bad to say about the running of the ABS and if i did i for sure wouldnt be a member.
and one day when i return to the states i will go there and fates willing i may be able to take some of the classes .. and meet some of the people that i have had many discussions with.
until then i will just work and sit at this computer and whine a little
D.
i totally understand about the need for rules that govern .. and especially for rules that govern everyone the same ..
i mean .. just because i live in australia doesnt mean that i want to be given some bonus..
i did join the ABS late last year .. and even if i could .. i would not think to test for JS yet .. not because i dont have faith in my blades or my ability.. but simply because i want to be happy with my work 100% before i start to look for a JS stamp.
i am in no rush .. im young and i know i have a lot to learn... but i also have time.
i did not wait all my life to come into this occupation only to rush into it out of ignorance and egotism.
any organisation that seeks to further the forging of blades is a good one in my books .. but if the goal of the organisation is to spread the knowledge .. then i would think that it would not only promote the classes that are held at the bladesmithing school .. but promote the learning overall.
that way it becomes a goal to teach an art .. not coax people to move closer to the bladesmithing school,...
that was my teeny tiny point.
but like i said .. i have nothing bad to say about the running of the ABS and if i did i for sure wouldnt be a member.
and one day when i return to the states i will go there and fates willing i may be able to take some of the classes .. and meet some of the people that i have had many discussions with.
until then i will just work and sit at this computer and whine a little
D.
- Joined
- Jul 23, 1999
- Messages
- 1,409
I have to support Jerry's words fully! I personally, have never attend any of the ABS classes, and although it took me 5 years to achieve my JS rating, and another 6 to achieve my MS rating, I did it! When I first joined the ABS, of course achieving an MS rating was my primary goal. But, as time passes, and you gain a bit of wisdom, you see things from different perspectives. Getting there was not the most important part..........it was , and still is, the journey. There is a great deal of sacrafice that goes along with anything that is worth while to pursue.
It all boils down to how badly a person wants something, and how hard you are willing to work towards that goal. Persoanlly, I planned a couple of years out to attend the Blade show and test for my MS. This gave me the time to save the $$ necessary to make the trip, and to prepare for the test.
Neither the JS or MS ratings are given lightly. Both require work and detication, along with a bit of sacrafice to achieve. Maintaining a level testing criteria is a must to keep the organization's ingerety. It's a tough thing to do, and my hat is off to the ABS board of directors! It is a difficult thing when a person comes to my shop for his/her JS test and fails. I can only imagine the pressure the ABS board memebers feel when dealing with an entire world of bladesmiths!
It all boils down to how badly a person wants something, and how hard you are willing to work towards that goal. Persoanlly, I planned a couple of years out to attend the Blade show and test for my MS. This gave me the time to save the $$ necessary to make the trip, and to prepare for the test.
Neither the JS or MS ratings are given lightly. Both require work and detication, along with a bit of sacrafice to achieve. Maintaining a level testing criteria is a must to keep the organization's ingerety. It's a tough thing to do, and my hat is off to the ABS board of directors! It is a difficult thing when a person comes to my shop for his/her JS test and fails. I can only imagine the pressure the ABS board memebers feel when dealing with an entire world of bladesmiths!
- Joined
- Mar 31, 1999
- Messages
- 839
The ABS in the past was a US centered organization that promoted the forged blade.
In the future it will be US Based. There are plans underfoot to go more international. There are many ways to do this so we will be looking at all of them. There will be no laxing of some of the rules such as the level playing field. For instance for those of you in Australia there is already an ABS mastersmith that you can do your testing with.
I anticipate hammer-ins in various countries down the road and classes maybe but lots of variables to look at. Just musing right now. When it is time to start this we may very well ask for input from the ABS member base as to what your ideals are.
The most important thing right now is keep on improving whatever you are doing and volenteer [sorry cannot find spell check] for things that would help the ABS.
fisk
In the future it will be US Based. There are plans underfoot to go more international. There are many ways to do this so we will be looking at all of them. There will be no laxing of some of the rules such as the level playing field. For instance for those of you in Australia there is already an ABS mastersmith that you can do your testing with.
I anticipate hammer-ins in various countries down the road and classes maybe but lots of variables to look at. Just musing right now. When it is time to start this we may very well ask for input from the ABS member base as to what your ideals are.
The most important thing right now is keep on improving whatever you are doing and volenteer [sorry cannot find spell check] for things that would help the ABS.
fisk
- Joined
- Apr 28, 1999
- Messages
- 349
As an old bladesmith,(and I'm not a master smith) I have no heart burn with the way the ABS establishes the testing and award of their Bladesmith stamps.Their stated purpose in organizing 25 years ago was to promote the art of "Forged Blades" thru education and testing. In that respect the ABS is unlike any other knife organization. If it must teach, then it also must have a viable means of assesing the quality of it's instruction. The use of anything other than measurable progress in the competence of a bladesmith,with respect to Forged Blades, would be contrary the ABS's stated objectives. The use of "I think" or "I'd like to see", however well thought out, are not measureable over the long run. The "I think & I would like to see" changes with who is doing the thinking. Until the ABS stated objectives change, bladesmith rateings must be based on forged blades. This misunderstanding of the guiding principals of the ABS has led to hard feelings in some quarters over non-forged blades not being acceptable for testing. The word "bladesmith" says it all.
The vareous Guild's, Maker/Collector associations, Etc. have other goals in mind so operate under different concepts. No one with any reasonable experience will deny that a non forged blade can be an excellent knife. The competence of the makes is key to quality.
The vareous Guild's, Maker/Collector associations, Etc. have other goals in mind so operate under different concepts. No one with any reasonable experience will deny that a non forged blade can be an excellent knife. The competence of the makes is key to quality.