Abselling (Descending) Equipment for B.O.B

B

Banshee

Joined
Oct 13, 2001
Messages
402
Hi Guys,

Just wanna share some ideas that been in my head for a long time.
I have always wanted to include an abselling harness, gears (carabiners and figure eight) and abselling ropes. The problem was always the storage of ropes in small bags. Normal Dynamic climbing ropes (7mm - 9mm diamter) is bulky for 50' or more. Less would render your gear useless for escape from 5 storey building or less).

An idea popped up when watching a show on cable recently titled "Trespass" starring Bill Paxton and Ice-T and written by Robert Zemeckis (1992).

It shows this firefighter (Bill Paxton) abselling down a 5 storey building with a normal half-harness and modified figure eight using some sort of light weight flat ropes which look to me like nylon type ropes used to make bag slings.

Anybody whose's knows about this things (Abselling gear and Rescue from high area) can fill me in on whether there're any sort of gear out there and its really practical for decending and not some Hollywood fake.

This flat type of rope is great to be included in the B.O.O gear cause its relatively light weight and very compact (is was shown as 50' or so fits requiring a large bag for the same length.

Thanks in advance.

oink......oink...Bob
 
well, hopefully this will be some help, at least. I don't know about the flat rope, but I'll look around.

You've probably already heard this sermon before, but rappelling with a dynamic rope can be dangerous, you can stretch the rope considerably trying to arrest a fall and crater into the ground while still being hooked in.
On the other hand, static ropes for rappelling and rescue can't take a bg impact load, and then you're better off with a dynamic rope. Comforting, huh?

Don't take offense if all of this is old hat to you, especially hearing it from me, I'll have to get more experience to be considered a novice. But, this has been drilled into my head by caving friends and so now I'm regurgitating it by reflex.

One thing I'd wonder about is how webbing would compare to rope for knot strength, and what it would be like to try to untie a knot in webbing that had been loaded. Everytime I've knotted webbing and put a load on it, it was real pain to get untied.
 
Something else I just thought about, THAT YOU SHOULD NEVER EVER DO!!!! (nice disclaimer, huh)

You could carry a lot of 3mm utility line or 550 paracord in a small bag. Either of those doubled up could hold a regular sized person. I would never attempt it, but then, if I was in a burning building, it would be a lot better choice than jumping. 100 ft of paracord can fit in a pretty small space, and with that, enough static rope to make a swiss seat, figure eight, and a biner you'd have enough gear to have at least a fighting chance.

Again, this should be viewed as a last resort, don't ever use paracord or 3mm rope for rappelling. I'd only do it if I thought I would surely burn to death otherwise.

What I would do is test it on the ground. Hook yourself up on your garage ceiling, so you can suspend yourself a sane distance off the ground, like no more than two feet. The consequences of failure then would be a lot more manageable!
 
One way you can fix the problem of having a harness with you is by wearing a rigger type belt, or having one on your pack. When worn, they aren't too bad, I actually prefer them as they are a bit wider than my other belts, and carry gear better. They will hold you for an emergency rappel, but I wouldn't suggest using them for any other type of rappelling. They are more compact than a harness, and cheaper than some of the harnesses out there as well, you can get them from Blackhawk and other similar companies.

As for rope, if I thought I was in a situation where I might have to rappel out of my office, I would set up a BOB just for that environment and leave it there, in it would be a length of 9-11mm dynamic line long enough to set up an anchor and get to the ground. I'd then toss in a standard 8 and a locking carabiner, and you would be set. Mind you, this will only get YOU down to the bottom, but it will do it somewhat safely(be even better if you include a harness instead of a rigger belt) and is a lot better than the alternative. As a climbing instructor(not as experienced as the title sounds, but still have a good amount of knowledge) I would never go down on anything smaller than 9mm or double 7mm line, and I would make provisions to have that available to me if I thought I might ever need to do an emergency rappel.
 
I like what Tique said.If this is for a set location,like your office get enough rope and leave it in place.you can repel with almost anything IF you have to,yes some ways are safer than others.Here is what I am issued for a "personal safety rope".About 25 feet of rope with a non-locking carabiner.This is to bale out of 2 or 3 story windows.This is what we do and yes we practice this ,place an axe or bar across the lower corner of a window,pass the rope around it and snap the carabiner back onto the rope,now loop the rope behind you and go out the window,you hold the doubled rope between your hands and let it slide through your hands as you desend!

We do this with full turnout gear and airpacks on.

The hard part about doing this from a highrise would be,having a long enough rope,a good anchor,and breaking the window in the first place.If your in a highrise office those windows are made not to break you aren't going to have much luck throwing your chair through it believe me.
 
Lone Hunter,

I have to admit, your method sounds rather "dicey" to me, but I suppose if being burned alive is the other option, this might be just fine.:eek:

I am curious how you avoid cross loading the non-locking biner. (it sounds as if you tie the biner to the rope end, then pass the biner around the bar or ax and reclip it to the rope). Why do you use a non-locker?

I'm thinking that it might be easier to just tie a quick figure eight bight and insert the bar or axe through the loop. This would remove the cross-loading of the non-locking biner.

As for the rope, are you using a climbing rope? What diameter? I was curious about the friction on your hands as you descend. I have no doubt that the body-belay generates enough holding power, but it must be hell on your hands...not to mention the burning of the skin on your lower back.

Some of the other folks have mentioned the use of harnesses, why not just make your own out of 1" climbing webbing. I have rapped using an improvised sling harness, but I would not want to take a fall on it.(tends to crowd the "boys" a bit :eek:)!! Reference the book "Freedom of the Hills" for excellent information. You could get by with a rope, 10 feet of 1" webbing and a locking biner. Use a Munter hitch tied on the locking biner in place of a figure eight, plate, or tube.
 
I've done rappels (only to about 70 feet) w/ just a swiss seat made from about 12 feet of rappelling rope (standard army green line) and a locking biner - tie the normal swiss seat, biner to front, rope goes through biner twice (wrapped around body of biner twice) then passes along the right side of body, braking is by use of right hand per normal rappel technique. I've actually done short rappels w/ 11/16" climbing webbing (rated at 3000 lbs) used as the rope & as the harness. A figure 8 or belay plate makes it a little easier, but using the biner only works fine (I like the larger locking pear shaped ones for this). I suggest getting a decent pair of gloves - you can use any pair of work gloves w/ reinforced leather palms - the thicker the leather, the less heat you'll feel :)

Sam
 
Diligence,your right its dicey.At one end of the rope is a figure 8 with the biner snapped onto the loop,you just pass it around the axe handle and clip it on the rope.In all honesty I leave my "personal saftey rope"in my duffle bag on the rig.(don't tell the safty officer)

They are so big on safty now that they almost make it more dangerous,if that makes sense.A second floor window sill is about 12 feet off the ground,I'm better off hanging from it (feet would be about 5 feet off ground) and dropping.get your rope out, find the right end,place your tool across window,clip on rope,wrap around you back out window ect.All in the dark with gloves as fast as you can or go out window feet first and drop.

Its one of those things thats fun to practice,but not based in reality for a firefighter.If I have to bail out its because things got real bad real fast and there would be no time for the rope.It may work for others who may have more time.

Hey your right,one could just slide the loop of the 8 up the axe handle but if you have a differant tool,that had a off set hook or 90 degree point you could not pass it through.
 
I've done rapelling using the body breaking method many times and found no problem with rope burns if you take your time and don't go down the face faster than a walk. Of course, almost any half harness and a figure eight is a vast improvement.

I used to keep 100 ft. of Bluewater and a D shaped biner in a bag in a 10th floor office I used to work in. There was a 3 floor lower level on one side so that I would only need to make it down 7 storys to that roof an then another 1 story off the back of it to the hillside it was built against. Reason ? The tower truck for the town only reached to 7 and had to come from 10 miles away.
 
I read with great interest what you guys had written and just itched to add what little I could: I do not climb nor abseil regularly... but I have done a little of both, and here's somethings I discovered over time:

Harnesses

when I was a boy scout, we were taught to rapel using a harness that we made out of manila hemp (10mm). This stuff was the standard eqiptment in every patrol (8 patrols to a troop). We were told that the harness we fashioned was called a panty-line (sniggerring all round) and this was how we tied it:

middle of the 3m rope is placed in the middle of the lower back. Ends brought around to the front and you form 2 overhand knots... (like tying a rope around your waist). The knot's in the middle just under you navel and the 2 ends are passed down between your legs.

They come out behind, up at an angle, like the creases you see on a visible panty line (hence the name??) and then tightened and secured back at the waist with half-hitches just below your kidneys...

Carabiner goes through the first knot you tied below your navel.

We were teenagers back then, and regularly used this to rapel from a cliff that was about 7 storeys high... You guys will probably be shocked to learn that we also used manila hemp for this too... thin hausers slightly thinner than an inch.

The only safety we had was leather gloves and someone with a "safety line" (yep, also manila hemp) connected to a second carabiner on the harness... what if the harness came loose?? hmmm.. we were kids, and that was all we could afford (our scout troop didn't have much money) and we made damn sure we knew out knots.


Webbing

I served in the Army for 2 and a half years and was in a transport battalion. One of the companies was a cargo rigging company and we often went on exercises dropping pallets of cargo off C130s or hooking them up to the SuperPumas. I was a company QM and was involved with indenting various types of cords and webbings for different cargo loads.
Most of the webbings we used has an SWL in excess of several hundred kg. There was a particularly nice one that we used a lot that was a bright blue and only an inch wide. I expect that a significant length of this wouldn't occupy much space at all.

HOWEVER :eek:

A line that's too thin, though great for storage and carry, would be kinda difficult to grip and control wouldn't it? I can't imaging descending on a line like that webbing... i'd probably be pinching so hard on it i'd give my hand a cramp. And with gloves on, a thin webbing might be hard to find in the hand... you might not feel it...

just my coupla cents worth...
 
Greetings!

If the desire is for a one-time use device to get down from somewhere bad, then here's an idea. The Air Force has a descender device designed to lower oneself from a parachute canopy stuck in the trees. It consists of nylon tape, or webbing, to the tune of about 150 feet. The top end has a clip that goes through the canopy risers and clips back to the line, creating a fixed loop easily adapted to whatever other situation you may be in. the descender is a little brake mechanism that clips into the parachute harness. Would be easily adapted to whatever harness you had or could make. The brake was easily used one handed, and even descending with no pressure was not life-threateningly fast. The brake got very hot, even after a 15 foot descent. I would not touch it after 50 or 100 feet.

Not a device you could pull down after yourself, and not one easily returned for use by another person, though possible if the situation demanded it. The really scary part was unclipping the risers from your harness and falling half a foot or so onto the descender. Rolled up the whole package was smaller than a medium sized coffee mug.

Stryver
 
First of all ... thanks guys for the great info .... I'm not exactly a pro at abselling but had done some through the years ..... some of the suggestions you guys make are great and I hope that it can save some lives someplace, sometime by someone.

Stryver, you seem to hit the jackpot right on the nose .... I think what you have describe is just the thing I'm looking for ... next question ... can someone post a picture, link or source where the decender and especially the nylon tape webbing rope can be found ....... guys you are just great !!!!!


Thanks

oink....oink....Bob
 
Just as an aside: most climbers will do almost anything to avoid having to abseil after a climb. There is no redundency if you're not belayed, and failure in your (one) system, or your anchor, will have consequences. If you must abseil, get and learn to use climbing-type equipment.

The one piece of gear mentioned above as getting 'too hot to touch' is an invitation to a ground fall: nylon's melting point is not very high, and a hot (enough) brakebar will melt your harness and/or your rope. That's one reason figure 8s are beefy: heat dissipation.

db
 
Dave:
I agree completely, but the brake and tape in question was for the second or third emergency of the day, and not for daily use. With space and weight being paramount inside an emergency parachute kit, I can understand the decision not to go with a bigger device.

Banshee:
Check with DRMO, or one of our friendly neighborhood former USAF survival instructors. I'd never heard of such a device until very recently, and have no clue where you might find one in the civilian world.

Stryver
 
Guys ... found something from Triple Aught Design that fits into my idea for an emergency B.O.B repelling gear at :http://www.tripleaughtdesign.com/rappelling_kit.htm
but for a few things,

1. It uses ropes instead of nylon tape
2. Does not come with harness
3. A tad bit bigger that what i have in mind though small enough
4. Cool

whata guys think of it ??

Bob
 
is this a real alternative for a harness?

i need one for safety on hiking trips. six and weight is an important factor.

im thinking of getting 30 meters of 10mm static rope, 2 biners and a figue 8.


is this a good kit for emergency rescue scenarios out in the bush?
 
What kind of situations do you foresee needing the rope for. If weight really is an issue for you, then you realize that 30m of 10.5mm static line will probably weigh close to 80 grams/meter. Translates into 2.4 kilograms (5.3 pounds). Now add the two biners (75g x 2) and the figure eight (75g) plus some 1" webbing for 2 make-shift harnesses (about 7m x 45 g/m). Total weight of system approximately 2.95 kilos (6.5 pounds) :(

This is a ton of extra weight for hiking. You might also consider using dynamic line which will assist with absorbing energy in the event of a fall (makes it easier on the fallee and the belayer)

I suppose if it was an emergency rescue situation, I'd be glad that you were around and had carried the gear.... :cool:

YMMV,
D
 
Guys

Just came to me some additional infomation about my first post regarding the 'tape' rope repelling gear.

They're call Pro-Pak Personal Repelling Pak complete with a harness, tape line, carabiners, edge quard pro, decenders, end stop device and belt carrier. Apparently its list as 3.0 ibs for a 60ft set-up and 4.3 ibs for a 110 ft Kevlar Line Set-up.

The home page is at : www.safetysystemscorp.com.
Could somebody with a pic posting account mail me at : bobrson@hotmail.com so that i can sent you the pic for posting(very greatfull)

Guys I know that most wont want to carry a set-up for abselling/repelling during normal hikes because of the weight ( i personally wont if i'm back packing on flat country) but for those in challenging terrain or as a B.O.B gear/escape gear if the set-up is light and SAFE enough .... why not ??

oink...oink...Bob
 
rappelling.jpg


Carol called these guys but they would not quote her a price without her faxing them a bunch of info proving that Go Get 'em Gear is a business :rolleyes: I'll give them a call and see what there government pricing is tomorrow :)

Have fun!

Dan
 
so what's happened to this thread? anyone had any luck with the propak??
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top