Accountability

P

Pulsar

Joined
Jun 17, 2000
Messages
95
It would seem that if local laws are misquoted and someone gets into a legal difficulty because of this...... Well you see what I mean. Are there to be rules for posting of local laws or is this just a place to discuss laws with a disclaimer telling folks to look up their own local regs.

bob
 
Originally posted by Pulsar:
It would seem that if local laws are misquoted and someone gets into a legal difficulty because of this...... Well you see what I mean. Are there to be rules for posting of local laws or is this just a place to discuss laws with a disclaimer telling folks to look up their own local regs.

bob
Click to expand...

I think it is important to discuss knife laws. Not knowing the law can get you in trouble very quickly. I can't tell you how many times I have seen people arrested on various charges because they did not know what the law was. I do not want to see anyone get in trouble because of information that may not be correct. I want this information to be as correct as possible, but each person should take responsibility themselves for making sure they know the local regs. City and County Ordinances can be more restrictive than state law, so knife law could vary from city to city.



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Dennis Bible
 
Thanks Shootist16 for your reply. I am very interested in the topic of this forum but at the same time I'm a bit wary when it comes to the law. Like you say, these laws can vary from city to city. It would seem prudent for an individual to personally check the local ordinances before carrying that auto that was purchased at the blade show. Make sure that a pocket clip being visible is enough to be legal etc. It would be interesting to see how things vary between cities and counties within the same state. Also the different methods of measuring blade length can be discussed.

bob
 
Hi Shootist, I'm glad that an LEO like yourself is willing to moderate this forum. I agree with you that we take information here with a grain of salt and take responsibility for personally knowing the laws. Even more important, we have to realize that legality is only part of the picture. At any given time, we must take into consideration how were we act with a knife (do we flip it publicly, do we "brandish" it unnecessarily).
We also have to remember that certain people, like youth, minority groups, etc. draw different responses when seen carrying. Often LEOs don't know (or don't care) the law and confiscate perfectly legal knives from people who "don't look right." Usually such people are too afraid to push for their rights and the public in general is none to sympathetic to knife carrying for anybody. I didn't mean to ramble but simple legality is only one roadblock when it comes to knife carrying and I strongly advise anybody to be prudent and use good judgement when carrying or displaying a knife.
 
A good rule of thumb when it comes to learning about knife laws is: "Don't trust anyone!" There's a lot of disinformation out there; not because people are being untruthful on purpose, but just because of word of mouth. People will say things like, "Well, my friend talked to a police officer and he said blah blah is legal, etc." Don't take their word for it; research the laws on your own and actually read what they have to say.

I hope that when people provide laws here, they will cut and paste quotes from the actual statutes, and/or create links to the statutes on the web. These kinds of references are really necessary to establish the accuracy of what's being posted.

[This message has been edited by cerulean (edited 09-06-2000).]
 
Of course, reading the statute doesn't always tell you how the courts will read the statute. Not all statutes are written so everybody will understand them the same way.


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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
 
Having just posted a query a few minutes ago on Arizona knife laws, let me share an experience with you all. This is my premise: Even a POLICE OFFICER him/her self may NOT know or sufficiently understand the knife laws in their jurisdiction. In California, I was stopped by a police officer for a broken taillight on my truck. It was an "excuse stop." I was requested to submit to a search and I did. he found me in possession of a butterfly knife which a beat cop in another part of the state said was legal. But now this other cop put me under arrest. At the same time he had me cuffed and in his cruiser, HE HIMSELF DID NOT KNOW WHETHER OR NOT THE KNIFE WAS ILLEGAL. His supervisor had to come to the scene with the CA. penal code book and they both argued for some time whether or not the knife could be construed as a switchblade under the penal code interpretation as a "...knife that can open with the flick of the wrist..." In the end, they decided to make the arrest even though both were clearly not sure that this knife was illegal. In fact, neither was any lawyer I spoke to. In the end, I was charged with a misdemenor, paid the citation, and that was it. But heed this warning: a police officer is not the final word on laws. Which is frightening seeing as how they're supposed to be enforcing them. The best compromise is to find what's CLEARLY LEGAL TO CARRY under the law and carry that. Leave the "flick of a wrists" at home. That one sentence can cost you depending on how the police officer interprets it and how well-educated your lawyer is , in the event you are stopped. Under the "flick of a wrist" laws, a folder that's worn and loose could be construed as an illegal knife. it could be said that you altered it or modified it to do so. Laws are so ridiculously vague that I honestly feel there's only one solution: legalize everything edged and punish criminals who use weapons to the full extent of the law. But of course that makes criminals responsible for their actions and that just doesn't make sense to the folks who want to excuse their actions because of something society allegedly did to them or denied them. Really; as if carrying a dagger gives someone the overwhelming urge to use it and a criminal will forego an illegal weapon. This is the result of allowing the unworthy to govern us and write our laws. This is the result of "social reforms." And this is my sermon for the day.

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Kevan "Raven" Taylor-Perry
 
Kevan Taylor-Parry is right.
Just because you receive some information from a Police Officer (such as myself), don't take it as gospel. We might be able to quote you the specific statute verbatum but the one thing you can be sure of is that the Crown Attorney or District Attorney's office will have many different interpretations of what it means.
I work in the Courts daily and have seen almost identical cases decided differently within weeks by the same judge.
Take the information that is provided in this forum as a first step to further research on your own. Then verify it by a call to your local prosecutors office and record the name, date, and position of the person you talk with.
Keep in mind that we can as knife -enthusiasts influence how the laws are interpreted and sometimes enforced.
Ranting and Raveing won't get us anywhere.
 
As the sworn LEOs here have already alluded to, even being respectful, considerate and polite won't protect you from the few jerks who are not man enough to carry the weight of the badge. It WILL however, keep you from inviting trouble you don't need, since MOST LEOs are NOT like that.

Whether an officer is right or wrong is not AlWAYS your main concern. Cooperating, within the extent of the law IS. Once you've done that, it's up to your attorney and a jury to decide whether you've violated a law, and even if that law is Constitutional (It's called "jury nullification"), if it comes to that. This may be up to you; how you act, what you've done (or not), and how you react.

"The LAW" has grown and become so complicated, and is subject to so much "interpetation", that NO ONE, not even the Supreme Court, as evidenced by their findings as well as rejection of some cases, REALLY "Knows", or even understands it.
It has become a morass of incomprehensibility and even incoherence, thanks to the corrupt criminals and imbeciles WE elect to do nothing besides MAKE most of these unecessary, and usually Unconstitutional, hence illegal and accordingly invalid "laws". Expecting an LEO to know and understand more than the SC is kinda counterproductive, to say the least.

At any rate, your best bet if encountered by an LEO in his official capacity is to treat him (or her) EXACTLY the way YOU would like to be treated. Beyond that, practicing your right to remain silent is your best resort, answering valid questions truthfully, without spilling your guts over things the officer probably doesn't want to hear, and doesn't much care about. Anything you're not sure of can be properly answered by simply declining politely to answer, and asking for an attorney.

NEVER talk yourself INTO a charge, but equally important, NEVER antagonize an LEO into exercising his official "judgement" with an action that can be prejudicial to your best interests.

I think it's usually called common sense.
eek.gif


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George
StarPD

[This message has been edited by StarPD (edited 10-08-2000).]
 
In California, I was stopped by a police officer for a broken taillight on my truck. It was an "excuse stop." I was requested to submit to a search and I did.
Click to expand...
If you are required to have functioning tail lights in California how is it an "excuse" stop? Is speeding an "excuse" stop? Is running a red light an "excuse" stop? How about throwing an empty beer can out your window, is that and "excuse" stop? Also you consented to the search, which you were not required to. That's why they "ask" permission to search.
But heed this warning: a police officer is not the final word on laws. Which is frightening seeing as how they're supposed to be enforcing them.
Click to expand...
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Kevan,
In my state and many others LEO's are prohibited by statute from giving legal advice. Unfortunately many people view police officers as a free lawyer, and you get what you pay for. Unfortunately your ignorance to the law was very inconvienent.

His supervisor had to come to the scene with the CA. penal code book and they both argued for some time whether or not the knife could be construed as a switchblade under the penal code interpretation as a "...knife that can open with the flick of the wrist..." In the end, they decided to make the arrest even though both were clearly not sure that this knife was illegal.
Click to expand...
I realize that you can open many knives with the flick of the wrist, but a butterfly knife is specificallydesigned to operate in this fashion. In Kansas any knife operated by a spring, gravity, or centrifugal force, is illegal. BTW, I would have arrested you too if that's the way the CA penal code reads.

In the end the officer was doing his job. If you want someone to blame get a mirror...or contact your lawmaker to see if they will clarify or change the current statute.

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EXCUSE ME WHILE I WHIP THIS OUT.
**Blazing Saddles**

kansasC.gif


[This message has been edited by aflatfoot (edited 10-11-2000).]

[This message has been edited by aflatfoot (edited 10-11-2000).]
 
aflatfoot, I disagree with you when you question the idea of an "excuse stop." As a police officer, I am sure you do not arrest everyone that you see breaking laws or committing various infractions. All police officers excercise discretion and they give some people breaks and other people they nail to the letter of the law. Obviously, any stop or arrest for an actual violation is legitimate but that does not mean that there isn't an element of subjectivity when it comes to who looks suspiscious or trustworthy. This has nothing to do with the basic decency or honesty of an officer. LEOs are human and have all the biases and predjudices of people in other walks of life.
 
Anthony I disagree with you. First of all police officers stop people all the time without giving them a ticket. If I see a guy driving a night with a broken taillight I stop him and tell him about it, I don't write a ticket I just tell him he needs to get it fixed. I live in the sticks, and people drive long distances at night in the country, not having your car lit up properly can confuse a sleepy driver (or an alert one) and cause an accident. My own personal philosophy is that I very rarely request a search on a vehicle, I have to be very suspicious. In most cases my searches stem from something illegal that I saw in plain view. Other agencies will perform interdiction at some level on every stop. The fact of the matter is, what the officer did (as Kevan tells it) was legal. Kevan had the right to refuse the search. There are so many circumstances that come into play that we will never know about because we were not there. In the end, he had something that CA did not want him to have. Ultimately he is responsible for that.

For the record I like all knives and I think all knife laws are misguided. In the end what gets you killed is the person not the weapon. Besides, statistics show a kitchen knife is by far the preferred weapon used for knife related murders.

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EXCUSE ME WHILE I WHIP THIS OUT.
**Blazing Saddles**

kansasC.gif
 
I'm glad you are a fair minded person and concerned about public safety. I stand by what I say, police are human and have just as many predjudices and subjectivities as anybody else. No matter how professional a person is, their human inconsistencies will result in unequal treatment of people. The best way to combat this is to admit to oneself and the public that LEOs are not perfect and that they reflect the values of their communities whether positive or negative. I want to say that I don't dislike the police, I respect them and their difficult job, however, I get the feeling that police are often afraid to admit that they can ever be wrong or less than completely impartial and professional in all instances. I, for one, respect people who admit their limitations or preconceptions. To get back to knives, I just want to say that who has the knife or what the person looks like is often crucial in how that person is treated by LEOs. I'm not saying that LEOs should ignore outside appearances, I just think they should always be mindful that preconceptions can easily affect the way they or anybody might view any given individual.
 
Anthony,

I agree with much of what you have said. I know I have many mistakes when dealing with people, I try to learn from each of them. I have said in other posts on this thread that I am not a big proponent of the "interdiction stop" and I do not practice interdiction. I can tell you though that our Highway Patrol uses this practice, and at one point had Troopers assigned strictly for that purpose. Although Kevan violated the law in CA, if he had known his rights in regard to consent searches he could have refused and avoided the whole situation altogether.

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EXCUSE ME WHILE I WHIP THIS OUT.
**Blazing Saddles**

kansasC.gif


[This message has been edited by aflatfoot (edited 10-13-2000).]
 
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