Adding a pistal grip makes a shotgun not a shotgun?

Chiller2

Chiller2

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Nov 30, 2006
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Found a link to this http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=1232158 article on another forum it states in the article that because the shotgun had a pistol grip it could not be classified as a shotgun and so could not be sold to anyone under 21.
Anybody else not aware of this.I have never heard of this before.
 
It wasn't considered a rifle as it never had a stock is what I read in the local paper today. So it's a handgun and he wasn't old enough to purchase/own one legally.

For those who didn't follow the link, this is in regards to the Utah Mall Shooter's guns. Four people have been indicted for illegal gun sales in regards to the shooter.
 
A pistol grip is the difference between an AOW (any other weapon) and a short barreled rifle for tax stamp purposes with a short barrel. It's the difference between 5 bucks, and 200, if the barrel is under 18".

Thank God the Feds are keeping track of that.
 
Fire one shot from a twelve gauge with a pistol grip and you'll grow up real fast.
 
I don't claim to be an expert on gun laws but my understanding was that barrel length was what determined what was a handgun and what wasn't. So whether it was shipped from the factory with the pistol grip or put on aftermarket it should not change its designation as long as the barrel was over 18" in length.
Now it is possible Utah has some state Laws that are different but I think that is federal law.But as I said I am not an expert thats why I posted this hoping to hear from who are.
 
From the article:

Because the firearm had a pistol grip, it is not classified as a rifle or a shotgun, and therefore cannot be legally sold to someone under 21. Investigators plan to look into the store's records to see if there's a pattern of illegal sales.
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They'll have to prove it had a pistol grip on it in the first place.
 
A pistol grip by itself doesn't make a shotgun illegal. At least it didn't. Now I going from the state and federal laws I knew a while ago but the law for shotguns was 18 inch barrel lenght and there was also a minimum overall length that I no longer remember. Same thing on rifles. 16 inch minimum on barrels and there was also a minimum overall length on rifles that I no longer remember and I believe was different than the minimum on shotguns. If the barrel or overall length went under either minimum on a rifle it was considered a handgun and handgun rules apply. If it went under either of the minimums on the shotgun then it was a sawed off shotgun and needed the federal tax stamp. At least that is what I remember. Caveats on this are 1. laws change and I may not have kept up with them and 2. states can have some of the most retarded restrictions and it is not only the states but laws can even vary from town to town.

KR
 
If you're under 21, putting a pistol grip on a shotgun is, in the eyes of the ATF, conversion to a pistol, so if the pawn shop sold it to him with the pistol grip on it, knowing he was underage, then they would be wrong. But again, he could have easily installed it himself, so they'll have to prove that.
 
did some more research as KR1 stated there is also a minimum overall length which seems to be 26" I would think most shotguns would exceed this limit even with a pistol grip.
 
The NFA of 1934 set forth that legal lenght limits for a shotgun are an 18" bartrel and 26" OAL, for a rifle, 16" barrel length, and 26" OAL.

The addition of a pistol grip does not change the firearm to a "pistol" by definition. It is still a shotgun provided the barrel is still 18" or over.

If it has a shorter barrel, it is an illegal weapon under GCA 1934, pistol grip or full stock.

That article is full of crap on the point of adding a pistol grip converts a shotgun to a pistol.:rolleyes:

All of this assumes that the receiver, the serial numbered part, was originally registered as a shotgun.

If it was registered as a "pistol", it would be transferrable as an AOW, subject to a $5 transfer stamp, instead of being a converted weapon and subject to the $200 stamp.
 
Kr1 is correct. If the barrel on the shotgun is 18" or longer and the OAL is 26" or longer. it is still just a shotgun.

Mossberg makes a 500 that is sold with just a pistol grip. Since it never had a butt stock, it can be modified into a pistol and registered as an AOW for $5. This is a loophole that was never intended. The AOW classification was for smooth bore pistols, Marble's Gamegetter, Ithaca Auto-Burgler and other collectable firearms that had short barrels.

If you were to make a short barrel shotgun out of a Remington 870 or Mossberg 590 or any other shotgun that had a butt stock, you would be required to apply for an ATF form 1 and pay a $200 tax. There is a company that makes super-shorty shotguns out of 500s and 870s. My guess is that they buy them from the factory without stocks.
 
If you were to make a short barrel shotgun out of a Remington 870 or Mossberg 590 or any other shotgun that had a butt stock, you would be required to apply for an ATF form 1 and pay a $200 tax. There is a company that makes super-shorty shotguns out of 500s and 870s. My guess is that they buy them from the factory without stocks.
Click to expand...
Serbu (who makes the "Super Shorty") starts with shotguns that leave the factory with pistol grips, that allows their weapons to be registered as AOW's instead of SBS. Saves $195 on transfer taxes, BUT you can't throw a butt on it without form 1'ing it into an SBS at the expense of about $250-$300 ($200 tax, $25 engraving, Shipping to engraver and back, passport photos and prints or notary, etc.... (depending on whether your an individual or a INC/LLC/RLT)). There is an AOW advantage in a couple states that allow AOW's but not SBS, and interstate transport isn't filled with as much red tape.

Personally, for a Form 1 project, since the manfacturing tax is the same ($200) I would recommend registering it as an SBS even if it could be registered as an AOW, if you could do SBS in your jurisdiction, since SBS status allows more configuration/reconfiguration options.

To get on with the weapon being discussed...
To my understanding over 18 on the barrel and 26 OAL is a shotgun according to the feds not a handgun. However the state may have their own definition of a handgun that is more intense than the federal definition. In Michigan for example, a rifle or pellet gun between 26 and 30" OAL requires to Pistol Purchase Permit and "Safety Inspection". As defined in Indiana (IIRC), that state's appeals courts (I know it was the appellate level, not sure how far), a pistol grip Title I (non-NFA) shotgun is a handgun, and they upheld an individual's conviction of unlicensed carry for carrying one.
 
thatmguy said:
The NFA of 1934 set forth that legal lenght limits for a shotgun are an 18" bartrel and 26" OAL, for a rifle, 16" barrel length, and 26" OAL.

The addition of a pistol grip does not change the firearm to a "pistol" by definition. It is still a shotgun provided the barrel is still 18" or over.

If it has a shorter barrel, it is an illegal weapon under GCA 1934, pistol grip or full stock.

That article is full of crap on the point of adding a pistol grip converts a shotgun to a pistol.:rolleyes:

All of this assumes that the receiver, the serial numbered part, was originally registered as a shotgun.

If it was registered as a "pistol", it would be transferrable as an AOW, subject to a $5 transfer stamp, instead of being a converted weapon and subject to the $200 stamp.
Click to expand...


thats correct.

shooting mags or slugs outta a PG shotgun isnt really a big deal my wife used to do it all the time she was 5'2/105, i used to shoot skeet (informally) with a PG mossberg and got to be fairly good at it even if i say so myself.
 
Just to add my semi-informed 2¢ to this month old thread.

I thought that the key difference in the law (federal) was in the definition of shotgun as being 'shoulder fired'. Then, if it has NEVER had a 'rifle stock' you can go under 18'' and as above posted go AOW route.

I actually was very interested in buying that very short 12ga a few yars ago. After a couple of calls to the local FFL's I found out it would be too much hassle (they did not appreciate the difference between SBR and AOW).

I then got myself (actually got as a gift) a Mossy 590.
 
If the web of your hand (area between thumb and index finger) is below the trigger, some states/cities consider this to be an assault weapon.

Thats one reason why the mini 14 flies under the assault rifle radar.
 
I watched a guy put his front teeth through his upper lip once while firing the PG shotgun before anyone could stop him. Technique counts! Watched another black an eye with a folding stock PG shotgun. PG's with full fixed stocks are more comfortable in one-handed control and the i'm-in-the-stuff-now around-the-corner shooting, but may not be as compact. ditto the law and perception stuff.
 
Unless UT has some other law--the reporter is talking out of their arse.

A PG with a standard 18" or longer barrel and 26" or larger overall length is still considered a regular shotgun--and anyone 18 or older is legal to buy and own the thing without any extra paperwork or stamps.

Mossberg or Winchester(maybe both) used to sell a combo that came with both the full and PG stocks included in the box.

They still do:
http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=5&display=specs
 
Hillbilly.223 said:
If the web of your hand (area between thumb and index finger) is below the trigger, some states/cities consider this to be an assault weapon.

Thats one reason why the mini 14 flies under the assault rifle radar.
Click to expand...

thats an odd way to regulate rifles lol............
 
I have never read so much bong logic in my life.

Porbably the same people who believe that if the blade is wider than the cops hand it's illegal.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

GO READ THE LAWS!!!

Read the National Firearms Act of 1934.

Read the Gun Control Act of 1968.
 
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