Advice on steel selection for kitchen knives

samuraistuart

samuraistuart

Joined
Dec 21, 2006
Messages
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I'm getting more requests for kitchen knives, and along those lines, was thinking about a different steel than the 1084 I have been using. Why? Well, personally I don't mind the patina that forms on carbon steel. I preach to my mother and mother in law, "Use those old carbon knives that belonged to your grandaddy!! They are 10 times better than the Ch Cutlery you're using!" And the standard reply, "Yeah but those knives are dirty looking and these are nice and shiny!". Meanwhile, I'm the guy who has to sharpen those tin cans.

To me, a scary sharp edge and edge retention are paramount, in ANY knife. To that end, I'm leaning towards working with 52100. The heat treat is definitely more complicated than 1084, but I feel like my skillset in heat treating has improved dramatically since I first began this craft, and am dieing to give that steel a try. I have a Cold Steel Master Hunter in Carbon V that would gut and skin deer all day long and still shave at the end of the day! I realize that steel was probably 0170-6, or 50100B (I suppose I would be pelted with tomatoes if I asked if any of that stuff is available?!?), but it's close to 52100. And I realize my heat treat will probably pale in comparison to Lynn Thompson's gurus.

However, a scary sharp edge and super edge retention are really not THAT important to your average John/Jane Doe in the kitchen. They don't know the difference. It seems most people are interested in........ooooh, look how purty that thing is! It shines!! And to that extent.....I'm thinking about 15n20. I understand the nickel content helps to ward off some of the corrossion that comes with carbon knives left unattended, and adds a bit of silvery shine to the blade as well. (The reason I'm not considering AEB-L, Elmax, or what have you is I want to do everything myself, especially heat treat, and I'm not there......yet!). Of course, the heat treat on 15n20 is much easier than 52100.

So would you go with the super qualities of 52100 and the difficulty getting that steel just right, giving customers a laserblade, or would you go with an easier to use 15n20 due to the "looks"? If it were MY knife.....no question at all. It would be 52100 (or W2).

Thanks for your thoughts and helping me decide which to choose!!!
 
W2 is about all I'll use for kitchen knives. We don't use stainless knives in this house either. Not that there's anything wrong with it, we just prefer carbon...

I also never got the performance out of 52100 that others seem to get. W2 is by far my favorite!
 
I'd make them of S35VN but I'd cry every time I saw it missued !
 
Carbon carbon carbon!!!


Ive been a chef for almost a decade and most competent chefs prefer carbon. Nothing wrong with stainless, just no advantage over carbon other than minor rust issue (isnt minor if you are competent).


Home chefs could benefit from stainless, theyre usually dishwasher safe.

for people wanting a better kitchen knife id recommend carbon.
 
I hear you, Stacy and Don, for sure. I have a stick of 1/8 W2, but I'm not letting go of it!!!!!!! If I had the Hitachi steels, of course, they'd be turned into knives faster than you can say austenized!!!! So it's either 52100 or 15n20. Until someone, cough cough, gets a supply of W2 back in stock, I'm hoarding the only bar I have! It's my preferred steel of choice, too.
 
I have both 52100 and 15n20, along with O1 in the kitchen, and I really like all of them. My wife's favorite is 15n20, my mother's is 01. I find all three make excellent kitchen knives. If I had any w2 I would use that just because I like playing with Hamons. I have to admit in very surprised how fine an edge the 15n20 will take. I was underwhelmed with the 1084, but not the 15 n20.

I find a piece of 3000 g trizac keeps my mother happy to keep the 01 looking shinier. She wipes down any little spots she thinks look "dirty."
 
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Willie71 said:
I have both 52100 and 15n20, along with O1 in the kitchen, and I really like all of them. My wife's favorite is 15n20, my mother's is 01. I find all three make excellent kitchen knives. If I had any w2 I would use that just because I like playing with Hamons. I have to admit in very surprised how fine an edge the 15n20 will take. I was underwhelmed with the 1084, but not the 15 n20.

I find a piece of 3000 g trizac keeps my mother happy to keep the 01 looking shinier. She wipes down any little spots she thinks look "dirty."
Click to expand...

That's why I got into W2, then found it was out performing all other simple carbon steels in the shop! :cool:
 
Willie71 said:
I have both 52100 and 15n20, along with O1 in the kitchen, and I really like all of them. My wife's favorite is 15n20, my mother's is 01. I find all three make excellent kitchen knives. If I had any w2 I would use that just because I like playing with Hamons. I have to admit in very surprised how fine an edge the 15n20 will take. I was underwhelmed with the 1084, but not the 15 n20.

I find a piece of 3000 g trizac keeps my mother happy to keep the 01 looking shinier. She wipes down any little spots she thinks look "dirty."
Click to expand...

That's why I got into W2, then found it out performing all the other steels in the shop! :cool:
 
Willie71 said:
I have both 52100 and 15n20, along with O1 in the kitchen, and I really like all of them. My wife's favorite is 15n20, my mother's is 01. I find all three make excellent kitchen knives. If I had any w2 I would use that just because I like playing with Hamons. I have to admit in very surprised how fine an edge the 15n20 will take. I was underwhelmed with the 1084, but not the 15 n20.

I find a piece of 3000 g trizac keeps my mother happy to keep the 01 looking shinier. She wipes down any little spots she thinks look "dirty."
Click to expand...

That's awesome that your mother takes such good care of the knife that you made for her. I imagine o1 takes a little maintenance in the kitchen.

My wife won't even touch the carbon steel kitchen knives that I made. We've actually argued over it a few times, and we almost never argue about anything. :(

Just out of curiosity, why is S35VN the choice SS for some of you? Is it the ease of grinding, ease of sharpening (at lower hardness), its looks, or...?

I think it depends on the knives intended use, but how about d2 for a meat and veggies knife? I think I'd like AEB-L for most things, although I'd take carbon (if I was the only one handling them) over anything else.
 
My mother grew up with cast iron frying pans and the like. When I told her to look after it like her frying pan, she knew exactly what to do. My Mother in Law, on the other hand, is getting a set of precut stainless blades and I will make her handles. She just can't wrap her head around how to keep a carbon steel blade from pitting and rusting. I even wrote directions out for her.
 
Strigamort said:
That's awesome that your mother takes such good care of the knife that you made for her. I imagine o1 takes a little maintenance in the kitchen.

My wife won't even touch the carbon steel kitchen knives that I made. We've actually argued over it a few times, and we almost never argue about anything. :(

Just out of curiosity, why is S35VN the choice SS for some of you? Is it the ease of grinding, ease of sharpening (at lower hardness), its looks, or...?

I think it depends on the knives intended use, but how about d2 for a meat and veggies knife? I think I'd like AEB-L for most things, although I'd take carbon (if I was the only one handling them) over anything else.
Click to expand...

I have used and currently I use CPM-154, CPM-S30v CPM-S35vn and CPM-D2 along with 440C.

I prefer stainless and all things made in the USA and so do the vast majority of home cooks & chefs that are increasing buying custom knives. I and my customers are quite happy with the CPM stainless lineup.

CPM-S35vn is one of my most used and the reasons are as you stated, ease of grinding and a tad easier to sharpen than CPM-S30v.

I find that the carbon steel for pro chefs is less of a reality these days and many states have a Stainless only law in any commerical kitchen. I live in California and its a law here. No carbon and no wooden boards.

I have found that while some carbon steels may sharpen a little easier the same physics apply to the edge not lasting as long as a quailty CPM stainless with proper heat treatment.

CPM-D2 is a semi stainless that may work for you but i don't think there is any ease of sharpening to be gained there?
 
All that has to be done to care for carbon steel in the kitchen, is rinse and dry after use. Just let it turn colors and enjoy.

I almost have my wife and son trained. :D
 
I use CPM-S35VN by the sheet ( from Aldo). I find it has a fine grain, a very tough edge, and a .060" thick kitchen/fillet knife will hold a great edge at Rc 60-61. 90% of my kitchen blades, and all of my fishing blades, are made from it. Cost is very good and HT is dead perfect from Peter's. If you are one who wants to do the HT yourself, it is fairly simple with a programmable controlled oven and the other equipment needed for a complex stainless steel.

Remember that steel choice is only one smaller part of making a high quality kitchen knife. Blade shape and edge geometry are 90% of what makes one kitchen knife great and one barely a cutter. A chef will pay $300 or more for a simple carbon steel knife that feels good in the hand and cuts well, but would not pay $10 for one made from Hitachi white paper steel that won't cut well or is ergonomically hard to use.
 
bladsmth said:
I use CPM-S35VN by the sheet ( from Aldo). I find it has a fine grain, a very tough edge, and a .060" thick kitchen/fillet knife will hold a great edge at Rc 60-61. 90% of my kitchen blades, and all of my fishing blades, are made from it. Cost is very good and HT is dead perfect from Peter's. If you are one who wants to do the HT yourself, it is fairly simple with a programmable controlled oven and the other equipment needed for a complex stainless steel.

Remember that steel choice is only one smaller part of making a high quality kitchen knife. Blade shape and edge geometry are 90% of what makes one kitchen knife great and one barely a cutter. A chef will pay $300 or more for a simple carbon steel knife that feels good in the hand and cuts well, but would not pay $10 for one made from Hitachi white paper steel that won't cut well or is ergonomically hard to use.
Click to expand...

Bingo. Hence 15n20. I'm a stock removal guy and it's available thin. And 52100, available relatively thin as well. Of course, 1/8 can be brought down thinner, but if thinner stock is available, it's saves on my equipment, and my elbow grease. Once I buy the proper heat treat oven and cryo stuff (if necessary with "x" steel), AEB-L/Sandvick equivalent will be my first stainless to play with.
 
After speaking on this subject with Roman Landes last week, I am doing some comparison blades in AEBL and CPM-S35VN. I plan on making the same blades in both steels and seeing if I can tell the difference Roman has the pictures to prove its fineness for a stainless steel knife. The toughness of CPM-S35VN is a plus, but the tradeoff is a tiny amount of sharpness. I don't know if splitting a hair is needed for most kitchen knives, but when such fineness matters ( like sashimi blades) the steel choices can make the difference.

One thing that became clear with Roman is how exceedingly far he takes his research and testing of the degree of edge fineness.....some might call it obsessive.....but in his own words - "You know I'm German!"
 
I'm going to have to purchase the steel of choice soon. I'm leaning towards the 15n20. Available thin, simple heat treat, and that bit of nickel for "purty" factor. If ONLY Hitachi would open up a distributor here in the states. Wait......what was that? What did you tell me a few days ago, Aldo? Really? Holy heat treat, Batman, that would be awesome!
 
Chuck Bybee told me in his personal testing that AEB-L out performed other stainless steels for kitchen knives. I Believe he said he preferred it to CPM154 and S35VN. Maybe he can chime in and tells us more. I have no personal experience with AEB-L but will be playing around with some in the near future.
 
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