Advice on upgrading my knives?

[MamaFish]

I have been enlightened by folks on this forum (and a few others). Now I’m here to ask you all for some advice. I have gotten some money that I’d like to use to buy some knives I’ve been wanting. I knew what I wanted, until I looked for a discount code for the company and came across these wonderfully informative forums. I’ve been thrilled with my knives for 13 years, but now I find out there’s something better; and maybe for the same price.

I’m at the age and place in life that I want to buy the best for my needs and I want to buy things that are going to last. As I’ve replaced items and added items to my kitchen I’ve researched my purchases extensively. When I bought my knives, I was not as wise, and didn’t even think of researching. The young man sat in my kitchen telling me all about them and I said “Wait. I want to USE the knives.” I pulled out all kinds of fruits and veggies from my frig and was amazed at how easy it was to cut with these (expensive) knives. I had always used serrated knives because I’d never met a straight edge knife in anyone’s kitchen that could cut. I had a few 6” fine serrated knives, one serrated paring knife, a bread knife, and a serrated butcher knife that was really difficult to use. I’d been using knives like these for 16 years. It was all I knew. I replaced them all that day with those expensive knives the young man was selling. I don’t regret my purchase, though I now know I could’ve done better. I didn’t know that then.

Now I’m debating whether to just stick to the brand I have and get the few other knives that I want or begin replacing them with something else. I like having my knives match, but I think I could get over that. That sounds silly just typing it out... if I know there’s something better for the same price, why wouldn’t I try it?

So, here’s my situation: I cook for a family of seven. My three oldest are often helping in the kitchen. They are all adept at using our current knives. Since I also homeschool, we’re making three meals a day for everyone. We use our knives a lot. We eat a lot of fruits and veggies and make almost everything from scratch. We cut almost no raw meat. I read somewhere that the Japanese knives are better at veggies than German knives, so that’s what I was considering. I also read that the Japanese knives hold an edge longer. That’s a plus to me. I don’t have any incredible knife skills, but I’m cutting a lot of stuff every day. I’ve stuck with using 6” serrated knives because they’ve worked. I’ve read all the posts that say you should do almost everything with a chef’s knife, but I never used one except for melons and such. Even with my supposedly great, expensive chef’s knife, I can’t slice an onion very straight. I guess if I had a knife that worked, I might enjoy re-learning how to cut, rather than using a smaller knife for everything.

After all my reading on the forums (for two days now), I’m thinking a lower priced Japanese knife might be what I want to try. MAC Pro, Tojiro, Fujiwara (only big knives?). I don’t know about Shun prices. Some folks have said they’re not worth the extra price.

I know I need to hold the knives before I decide. I was just wondering if you think these brands might be a good fit for my needs or if there are any others. Do you all think it’s better to try a Japanese knife? As far as sharpening, my husband’s face lit up at the thought of learning a new skill (he’s a tinkering kind of handy man). Actually, I probably wouldn’t notice them getting dull for a while since it’s been 13 years and I’ve never sent my knives in for free sharpening (gasp). I have noticed a difference lately, though, so I’m going to send them in soon.

If I were to buy just one knife, to see what I’ve been missing/whether I would like something better than the knives I have; would you recommend getting a larger (chef/gyuto) knife or a utility/petty knife, since that’s the size I’m used to working with? I think I might like the santoku style.

Some other questions:

Do you recommend NOT storing knives in a block? What about cutting on plastic mats? Those have been so handy because we can just put them in the dishwasher and don’t have to wash off a cutting board (what seems like) ten times a day.

I would also like to get a decent cleaver for my husband. He smokes pork and would like to have a cleaver to chop it after it’s off the bone. Should I just try to find one at a local Chinese grocery, as some have suggested? It doesn’t need to be the best thing, but it’d be nice if it held up for years to come.

And I just remembered... My husband uses a Rapala filet knife. If there’s something nicer/better out there, that would make a nice Father’s Day gift. Any ideas on that?

I hope all this has made sense. I’m looking forward to your input. I have been amazed at the wealth of information I’ve found on these forums! It’s a world (of knives and metals) I never knew existed. My husband’s a mechanic and he knows the value of a quality tool.

Thanks for any advice.

 

[Cynic2701]

I'm, and many other kitchen knife enthusiasts, are against buying sets. Too often you get knives that you don't need, and end up spending money that could have been better spent getting a better chefs knife/gyuto etc.

Tojiro is an excellent starting point and their prices for what you get are very hard to beat. I've bought several for my brothers. A Tojiro DP in the 210 - 240 mm range would also be a good choice, and cheaper, though their knives are a bit rough around the edges. I've had to re-grind edges and in order to get the profiles to fit the blade properly. An issue that I sometimes see is that the edge is "wavy" meaning that it won't contact a flat plane like a cutting board in a consistently flat way. This will cause issues when cutting or mincing when a portion of the blade never actually hits the cutting board--a common problem vegetable is bell peppers, and you will see what is termed an "accordion cut" where the pieces never separate fully despite being cut through in places. A knife with a bolster like on Western knives like a Henckels or a Wusthof will develop this issue over time unless the bolster is reground at each sharpening. The handle can also sometimes be ill-fit with sharp edges, and will need to be ground or sanded smooth and flush.

If you get one of these, I'd recommend having someone re-profile it before using it and inspecting it for any flaws. They are great for what you are getting if you know what you are getting yourself into. You can expect to pay in the $55 (very good deal and on sale) to around $80 range.

I am personally anti-Shun due to the unreasonable amount of chipping that occurs with their heat treatment of VG-10. Several other manufacturers to a much better job at a comparable, or lower, price range like Tojiro (with their DP line) and Al Mar; more specifically the Al Mar santoku/gyuto comparable to a Shun santoku is better ground, thinner, and has no chipping issues. I've sharpened dozens of Shuns chipping issues. Their SG2 lines tend not to be as chippy, though they can be twice as expensive--and not worth the cost in my opinion. I'm sure I'm going to be crucified for saying so.

I think you really have few questions to answer:

1. Do you prefer a thinner, harder, Japanese knife that will cut better and longer than a Western chef's knife, but at the expensive of being more delicate? I've broken the tip off of $400+ Japanese knives, but I do have the stones (literally and figuratively) to grind a new tip. How much will you cry if you snap the tip off of an expensive knife?

2. Do you prefer a flatter profile or a more curved profile? Gyuto's tend to have a flatter profile that lends to better board contact, but they do require a different knife skill set to use than the usual "rock-chop" motion of Western knives. There are a few French knives that have a similar profile.

3. Are you willing to deal with upkeep on a non-stainless knife steel? The lower the alloying elements, the finer grained the edge can be, and the longer it will be able to hold a sub-15 micron edge. This type of edge holding is better in the kitchen. These steels will require more upkeep, though many professional chefs prefer them over stainless steels. There are some steels that are sort of "in between" the two types.

4. Do you steel your knife? Harder heat treatments on steel is commonly seen on Japanese knives. You can actually ruin an edge on a Japanese knife by steeling it.

5. Do you sharpen your knife, or have someone else do it? It's not too hard to learn how to sharpen and I would definitely recommend it. A couple of minutes every week or two would be all you would need to keep your knife consistently sharp. Also keep in mind that knives don't come from the factory with an optimal edge, and so the first sharpening is actually a rather important one.

 

[OldNavy]

good starter knife, I have it's larger ( 270 mm) brother, very easy to sharpen.
http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/kitchen-knives-14/kitchen-knives/zakuri/zakuri-240mm-blue-1-kurouchi-gyuto.html

for a cleaver, check out this one. They come with an insanely sharp edge, very thin great on veggies

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/cckcleaver2.html

good starter set for all of your sharpening needs

http://www.japaneseknifesharpeningstore.com/Dave-Martell-s-Core-Set-of-Sharpening-Stones-p/set1dmcore.htm

 

[timos-]

chefknivestogo has excellent customer support and a great well priced selection.

I personally use an 8" gyuto to cut stuff for salads.
I use a 6.5" petty for everything else. Ever since I started using Japanese style knives I have found cooking and the prep work to be a complete joy. It is amazing what difference good edge can make.
I prefer Stainless AEBL steel, easy to sharpen and gets very sharp.

 

[B34NS]

MAC pro's are my favorite out of the lineup you mentioned. Fujiwara's FKM series (stainless) and Tojiro's DP series are great as well.

An 8" of any of these will make a great knife, doesn't matter if it's a santoku, gyuoto, or western chefs. They will all kick the pants off any $200+ knife regardless of nation origin.

The whole "Japanese" VS "German" thing was a marketing ploy and has not weight.

I'd reccomend an 8" chefs, a 5-6" utility and good paring knife. That way you can get more hands on deck in the kitchen too!

 

[Cynic2701]

MAC pro's are my favorite out of the lineup you mentioned. Fujiwara's FKM series (stainless) and Tojiro's DP series are great as well.

An 8" of any of these will make a great knife, doesn't matter if it's a santoku, gyuoto, or western chefs. They will all kick the pants off any $200+ knife regardless of nation origin.

The whole "Japanese" VS "German" thing was a marketing ploy and has not weight.

I'd reccomend an 8" chefs, a 5-6" utility and good paring knife. That way you can get more hands on deck in the kitchen too!

I don't know about that. I've used a lot of knives - Wüsthof, Henckels, Shun, Tojiro, Konosuke, Takeda, Al Mar, Gesshin, etc. - and I'm convinced that the ~$250 - 400 range is where you get the most features before diminishing returns really start kicking in. It might be easier to think of this range in the terms of a higher end Spyderco knives: while you can get great well functioning knives for under or around $100 (e.g. Manix, Para2), you'll have to shell out more to get specialized steels or materials (e.g. M390, S90V, titanium, etc.). At the ~$250 - 400 range is where you see extremely precise grinds, excellent heat treatments, noticeably increased edge retention, higher edge stability, and a real dearth of wavy edges or weird profiles.

For a kitchen knife purchase where a knife you use every day should conceivably last your entire life if used responsibly I think that it is well worth the investment.

To the OP, I'd suggest trying to learn to use the pinch grip for knives. I'm personally convinced that handles are virtually meaningless on a knife, aside from adjusting balance issues. With a proper pinch grip, you aren't gripping the handle so much as the spine of the knife blade. One can, and I have, used knives that didn't have handles without any issues.

A knife handled in the Japanese wa-style actually changes the balance point of the knife in comparison to the more commonly seen (in the U.S./Europe) scaled handles. By making it more blade heavy (meaning when holding the knife, the balance point is heavier towards the tip) you can get more cutting power with a stroke despite having less mass in the overall knife. The knife is "quicker" and "lighter" in the hand by virtue of changing the balance point, and if you ever have to start processing 10 - 20 pounds of vegetables at a go, it can really make a difference in fatigue.

 

[B34NS]

I don't know about that. I've used a lot of knives - Wüsthof, Henckels, Shun, Tojiro, Konosuke, Takeda, Al Mar, Gesshin, etc. - and I'm convinced that the ~$250 - 400 range is where you get the most features before diminishing returns really start kicking in. It might be easier to think of this range in the terms of a higher end Spyderco knives: while you can get great well functioning knives for under or around $100 (e.g. Manix, Para2), you'll have to shell out more to get specialized steels or materials (e.g. M390, S90V, titanium, etc.). At the ~$250 - 400 range is where you see extremely precise grinds, excellent heat treatments, noticeably increased edge retention, higher edge stability, and a real dearth of wavy edges or weird profiles.

For a kitchen knife purchase where a knife you use every day should conceivably last your entire life if used responsibly I think that it is well worth the investment.

I don't think someone who is new to professional grade knives will be able to "tell" the differenece between moldyd steels and boutique steels. I believe it takes some time behind the knife to start developing tatse for these features. Besides, technique is king. Learning how to sharpen your knives on a simple double sided whetstone, and maintaining everyday with a ceramic hone or leather strop will keep any knife lasting forever despite it's cost.

Not to mention the many threads on here of people who just bought a +$200 knife only to roll, damage, or chip the edge. Heck even professional kitchen people trash those more expensive knives in some cases quicker because they lack the appropriate technique required to take advantge of those higher end features. I've seen some pretty great scenarios of prosumers getting nice knives and fully using them and enjoying them, in contrast I've also seen what regular "professional" cooks do to their blades all the time. I just tend to advocate learning the many different knives and their techniques to fully enjoy the home culinary experience. Finding what works for your diet and lifestyle is more important than how much or who makes a knife, at least to me.

That's why I'd say to the OP, go with one of those suggested earlier, a pricier knife will not always be a better one. My lowly MAC's have paid my bills and rent more years over than the knives actually cost me, and are still in service. Not bad for my initial sub $200 investment. After years of scraping on a cooks salary, I now have some nicer knives for commercial work, I can appreciate all the things you mentioned above, especially about the handles. I agree about that. I think the OP will really enjoy having some nice light slicey knives to cook with and not worry about it being too expense to replace should something happen to it. I'd also suggest making a knife bar from scratch, just a piece of wood and some rare eath magnets works really good for knife storage.

Here's my current home kitchen knife bar always in evolution. The chefs is a mac pro 9 1/2" which I've had since 2001. The middle is their 6" boning knife. The one next to that is the 5" mac pro utility. Both of which I've had since 2006. Although a similar array, without the need for the boner as OP doesn't work with protiens, could be subbed for a smaller paring knife or serrated bread knife instead.

I keep my nicer knives in my work kniferoll.