AEB-L Rockwell?

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iticam92

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Jun 12, 2014
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I am about to send out 6 blades in AEB-L and I want to know what a good rockwell hardness would be. I have no experience with this steel, I just read that it is has an excellent balance of edge retention to toughness. They are very small 3" fixed blades, 1/8" thick, for edc/outdoor purposes. I would think that 58-60 would be good, but I just wanted to see if anyone with experience with this steel has a preference. What number would get me the most out of the steel?
 
Agree with checking with Larrin...... But I have some experience with a thin AEB-L blade that is 63Rc.

I'm pretty Hard on it.
It looks like a chef's knife, it's thin. but I've done some light hard wood log Battoning and stabbing tests..... Just for reference. and it's held up fine!

If I were you...... I'd shoot for 61-62Rc

58 is too low
 
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FWIW, Nathan Carothers runs his AEB-L DEK1's, which are 4" and ~5/32", at 61.
 
I agree with jlauffer and Crag above.

AEB-L is not well balanced; it's skewed toward toughness a the expense of edge wear. With your small knives, I'd expect you'd want to pull that balance more toward edge wear, because you'll have plenty of toughness. AEB-L is the toughest of the stainless steels.

At 61 Rc, it's tougher than M4, 4V and CruWear. But it's edge wear is low (about 370 TCC), not much better than A8(mod) or A2.

When you pull up the hardness to 65 Rc, its toughest drops into the range of S35VN, Vanax, CPM 154 and A2, but it's edge wear (450 TCC) is just short of 3V or VG 10.

I have an AEB-L kitchen knife (I think about 61 Rc), but I stopped using it because it has such low edge wear, and I didn't need all that toughness.
 
Twindog said:
I agree with jlauffer and Crag above.

AEB-L is not well balanced; it's skewed toward toughness a the expense of edge wear. With your small knives, I'd expect you'd want to pull that balance more toward edge wear, because you'll have plenty of toughness. AEB-L is the toughest of the stainless steels.

At 61 Rc, it's tougher than M4, 4V and CruWear. But it's edge wear is low (about 370 TCC), not much better than A8(mod) or A2.

When you pull up the hardness to 65 Rc, its toughest drops into the range of S35VN, Vanax, CPM 154 and A2, but it's edge wear (450 TCC) is just short of 3V or VG 10.

I have an AEB-L kitchen knife (I think about 61 Rc), but I stopped using it because it has such low edge wear, and I didn't need all that toughness.
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The reason AEBL is used in kitchen knives isn't because it is a high toughness application. It's used for kitchen knives because they're usually pretty thin with narrow edge angles and AEBL has particularly good edge stability for a stainless. Your food shouldn't be abrasive enough for wear to matter much. Edge stability is more important for good edge retention than abrasive wear resistance in many applications and I would think that would be true for most people in the kitchen. For some reason this doesn't appear to be common knowledge, perhaps because it is difficult to quantify with hard numbers like a CATRA wear test that is easy for people on the internet to digest? If your AEBL knife isn't holding an edge well in the kitchen there is something wrong. Some heat treat shops use a snap temper before cryo (best practice for tool and die, not so great for knives) which can create issues with stabilized retained austenite. This isn't a flaw with the alloy but an issue with the heat treater that will probably be present on other stainless alloys as well.
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
The reason AEBL is used in kitchen knives isn't because it is a high toughness application. It's used for kitchen knives because they're usually pretty thin with narrow edge angles and AEBL has particularly good edge stability for a stainless. Your food shouldn't be abrasive enough for wear to matter much. Edge stability is more important for good edge retention than abrasive wear resistance in many applications and I would think that would be true for most people in the kitchen. For some reason this doesn't appear to be common knowledge, perhaps because it is difficult to quantify with hard numbers like a CATRA wear test that is easy for people on the internet to digest? If your AEBL knife isn't holding an edge well in the kitchen there is something wrong. Some heat treat shops use a snap temper before cryo (best practice for tool and die, not so great for knives) which can create issues with stabilized retained austenite. This isn't a flaw with the alloy but an issue with the heat treater that will probably be present on other stainless alloys as well.
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First, I'm a huge fan of yours, Nathan. I have several of your knives, including my favorite, your light chopper in Delta 3V, which is incredible in terms of fit and finish, design and heat treat. Absolutely love that knife. Really hate to disagree with you, but what's a knife forum if we all agree?

I find that edge wear, geometry and rust resistance to be the key factors for my main kitchen knife, which is a small chef's knife or gyuto. I'm vegan, and don't find edge stability, as Roman Landes defined it (resistance to both chipping and rolling), to be a factor. I personally define edge stability to include edge wear. It's not a very stable edge if it wears down fast.

My chef-like knife in AEB-L has an excellent heat treat and it is a great knife in every aspect other than edge wear. It was my favorite kitchen knife until the edge wear started to bother me. It's not that the AEB-L steel dulled faster than most steels used in kitchen knives, but that I could get so much better edge wear in other steels.

I switched to a 440C chef's knife, which also had an excellent heat treat and wonderful ergos and edge geometry. Better, but it was not all that great at edge wear, either.

Finally, I settled on a Vanax SC (61 Rc) gyuto in 0.06 inch blade stock an a seven thousandths edge. An edge that thin does need edge stability, and Vanax comes though. This knife doesn't chip or roll, although I did break off a very tiny (less than 1 mm) piece of the tip, mostly because it was so thin it kept sticking in the end-grain of my cutting board. No problems with edge stability, and much better wear resistance and unbelievable cutting performance. But, it doesn't see bones or anything like that.

If we look at Larrin's edge wear testing for consistency in data [ edge-retention-testing-of-seven-more-steels-xhp-spy27-maxamet-rex-45-420-t15-rex-76 ], AEB-L at 61 Rc comes in at 355 TCC. At that same hardness, 440C comes in at 445 TCC, a 25 percent increase in edge wear.

Vanax at 61 Rc, like mine, ranks 545 TCC, a 54 percent increase in wear resistance. S90V at 61 Rc is 830 TCC, a 134 percent increase.

If a kitchen knife has the edge stability to hold a very acute edge profile, then edge wear becomes the determining issue. No matter how good AEB-L's edge stability, it is a low-wear-resistant steel. Too low for me, given the options in today's market.
 
I definitely value wear resistance of my kitchen knives VERY much (I slice half-frozen meat quite often). Was thinking about buying a custom AEB-L chef's knife but after reading this thread about this steel's edge retention (even with good HT), I guess I'll be looking at another steel.
 
Twindog said:
I agree with jlauffer and Crag above.

AEB-L is not well balanced; it's skewed toward toughness a the expense of edge wear. With your small knives, I'd expect you'd want to pull that balance more toward edge wear, because you'll have plenty of toughness. AEB-L is the toughest of the stainless steels.

At 61 Rc, it's tougher than M4, 4V and CruWear. But it's edge wear is low (about 370 TCC), not much better than A8(mod) or A2.

When you pull up the hardness to 65 Rc, its toughest drops into the range of S35VN, Vanax, CPM 154 and A2, but it's edge wear (450 TCC) is just short of 3V or VG 10.

I have an AEB-L kitchen knife (I think about 61 Rc), but I stopped using it because it has such low edge wear, and I didn't need all that toughness.
Click to expand...
what are your thoughts on white steel or super blue? do you have any experience with those?
 
qpyung said:
what are your thoughts on white steel or super blue? do you have any experience with those?
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I use those steels only in the kitchen. I have a super blue gyuto at 64 Rc and very thin geometry. It's a little brittle and doesn't hold an edge all that well. But the geometry makes it a great cutter and easy to sharpen.

My white steel is a little less hard and the geometry is not quite as acute.

Both are nice knives with excellent features other than the steel alloy.

But these days I use a super thin (0.06 inch stock) gyuto in Vanax. Has great geometry, holds an edge better, very easy to sharpen and is completely stainless.
 
61-62 is a good target window. The AEBL has toughness to spare.

I am not an edge retention junkie.

I am willing to hit my edges with a ceramic rod frequently.

The wear resistance of AEBL falls below other high carbide steels, but not by a lot for some of the more common stuff.

I love 1095, but AEBL is better in edge retention.
A lot of my favorite steels fall below the lovely AEBL edge retention.
 
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