Air making edges dull?

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Jan 19, 2010
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I've been on kind of a weird mission as of late to just see how sharp I can get a knife. I've gotten some edges really scary, but it seems like after letting them sit for a few days the edges aren't so scary.

I figured this had to do with the little "edge teeth" becoming misaligned and it needing to be steeled. I've heard of this somewhere in a book somewhere.

However a friend of mine brought up an interesting idea. His theory is that when you get an edge to a certain point of sharp, then oxidation alone will cause it to dull out a little in a day or two.

Now I'm sure this is true in theory, but do you think anyone would really ever notice a difference in oxidation on an edge this sharp in only a couple of days?

I'm leaning toward them just needing to be steeled.
 
I've been on kind of a weird mission as of late to just see how sharp I can get a knife. I've gotten some edges really scary, but it seems like after letting them sit for a few days the edges aren't so scary.

I figured this had to do with the little "edge teeth" becoming misaligned and it needing to be steeled. I've heard of this somewhere in a book somewhere.

However a friend of mine brought up an interesting idea. His theory is that when you get an edge to a certain point of sharp, then oxidation alone will cause it to dull out a little in a day or two.

Now I'm sure this is true in theory, but do you think anyone would really ever notice a difference in oxidation on an edge this sharp in only a couple of days?

I'm leaning toward them just needing to be steeled.

Me too.

Whether you use a steel or not, I'm betting you have a bit of a burr on your edge. A burr can be very sharp initially, but it's weakened steel. It'll bend or break off, resulting in an edge that seems to rapidly 'change' in sharpness in a short amount of time. I'm becoming a stropping fanatic, for this reason primarily. If stropped correctly and completely, the burrs will never be an issue, and your hair-whittling edges will last a LOT longer.

Unless you use only carbon steel blades, and live on/near the ocean, a modern blade with even some moderate rust-resistance shouldn't 'micro-corrode' that easily. And whatever corrosion might be happening at the edge should be insignificant and/or unnoticeable anyway.
 
Me too.

Whether you use a steel or not, I'm betting you have a bit of a burr on your edge. A burr can be very sharp initially, but it's weakened steel. It'll bend or break off, resulting in an edge that seems to rapidly 'change' in sharpness in a short amount of time. I'm becoming a stropping fanatic, for this reason primarily. If stropped correctly and completely, the burrs will never be an issue, and your hair-whittling edges will last a LOT longer.

Unless you use only carbon steel blades, and live on/near the ocean, a modern blade with even some moderate rust-resistance shouldn't 'micro-corrode' that easily. And whatever corrosion might be happening at the edge should be insignificant and/or unnoticeable anyway.

Actually, the change is so insignificant I can't really tell if I'm imagining it or not, and there might be a lot of subjectivity in the cuts. However, it's as if one day I can pop hair off my arm with a knife I'm sure there's no burr on, then I just simply let it sit out--no use at all--and it cannot do the same thing a day later.

I thought of steeling because I read in "The Razor Edge Book of Sharpening" that the little piece of metal that steeling aligns can "flop over" after time so I think I'm gonna either go with that or my imagining things.


Not really important either way, I just wanted to know if oxidation could even have that much of an effect. I really didn't think it could.

:thumbdn: on wire edges. Hate those little buggers. Some old pro told me to use a brass rod to remove burrs since I had been using a steel. I used aluminum instead, but the real key seems to be that the wire edge kinda grabs onto the softer metal and gets pulled off. Really helps.

I just recentley started stropping too, and it's only after that my edges even got sharp enough for me to think I was noticing this. In any case, I always feel like the edge needs to be restropped even if I've not used it at all. I've moved on from steels all together, but if I leave it out for a few days even without using it, I feel like it doesn't shave as well without being stropped again.

Maybe I'm just crazy?
 
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If you do think you've got a wire edge issue going on, here are some more suggestions:

You mentioned using the aluminum rod, that it 'grabs' the wire edge and pulls it off. You can also do this by cutting into a piece of wood (as if whittling) or cutting into and drawing the full length of the edge through a piece of stiff, thick leather. Then, after doing this, gently and carefully strop again.

One way I 'test' for burrs or wire edges, I'll cut into the edge of light paper, like phone book pages or grocery store receipts. If the edge is very sharp and burr-free, it should make several very smooth, snag-free passes through the paper, along the full length of the cutting edge. If there's a burr or nick or wire edge, chances are it'll snag in the paper during the first or subsequent cuts. If I make one clean pass the first time, then the edge grabs or snags on the subsequent cuts, to me, that's a BIG RED FLAG alerting me to the presence of a burr that's moved/flopped over.

Edited to add:
By the way, the answer is NO. You're not crazy. :D

Testing shaving sharpness can be a tricky thing. For me, there's great variation in trying to evaluate your edge on hair. If the hair is nicely moisturized one day, and dry/brittle another day, you'll notice a difference in how it shaves. For me, testing sharpness with paper produces a clearer indication of whether your edge has significantly changed or not.
 
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Testing shaving sharpness can be a tricky thing. For me, there's great variation in trying to evaluate your edge on hair. If the hair is nicely moisturized one day, and dry/brittle another day, you'll notice a difference in how it shaves. For me, testing sharpness with paper produces a clearer indication of whether your edge has significantly changed or not.

There is something to be said for these thoughts. I would also point out that paper can be quite variable as well. Varying moisture contents, variability in composition, etc.

Testing sharpness is an ocean of variables and unknowns. Almost every test involves a bit of skill as well (speed, angle, push-cut vs slicing action). I enjoy the hunt for a higher degree of sharpness, but quantifying things at home so you can (even subjectively) gauge sharpness from one sitting to the next (or compared to someone else on the web) is tricky at best.

Probably best to find a method that makes sense to you and limit the variables the best you can.

You use paper, some guys use a string and postal scale, some use hair, others shave print off of newspaper, I once read about gauging sharpness in numbers of bisected prisoners in a single swipe of the blade. That sort of brings us to the argument of sharpness testing and its relevance to the intended work for the blade.

I hope this rambling has not derailed the thread.

To the OP. I seriously doubt your edge oxidized in a couple days. It could be wire/burr, but chances are it is variability in your media (hair) and possibly in your head. I say this because I have experienced the opposite at times (thinking a knife is only kind-of sharp and put it away, and weeks later return and find it MUCH sharper than I seem to recall).
 
i had a well known brand name knife that was gave to me by a friend. i put an edge on with the paper wheels so it was shaving sharp. i never used it for over a week but when i went to use the knife to cut some cotton string the knife wouldnt cut it too easy. i ran the knife over the paper buffing wheel a few times and cut the same string with ease. the knife was stainless so oxidation wasnt the problem. i had a shrade carbon steel knife that i carried also and it was sharp even after a month of non use when i went to use it. i think it might have something to do with the brand of knife since other friends with the same brand have had the same problem.
 
i had a well known brand name knife that was gave to me by a friend. i put an edge on with the paper wheels so it was shaving sharp. i never used it for over a week but when i went to use the knife to cut some cotton string the knife wouldnt cut it too easy. i ran the knife over the paper buffing wheel a few times and cut the same string with ease. the knife was stainless so oxidation wasnt the problem. i had a shrade carbon steel knife that i carried also and it was sharp even after a month of non use when i went to use it. i think it might have something to do with the brand of knife since other friends with the same brand have had the same problem.

There are some amazingly crappy blade steels out there. I've got a cheap little paring knife, bought for maybe $5 at the grocery store, that 'appears' to take a very acute, sharp edge, but won't shave hair to save my life.

A friend of mine was a jet mechanic in the Navy. Spent a lot of time on aircraft carriers. We were talking about the old military-issue TL-29 'electrician's knives' one day. At one time or another, these knives have been made by many different manufacturers, some evidently worse than others. He told me that he could sharpen the knife, walk across the flight deck, and it'd be DULL when he got to the other side. I think about that every time I come across one of these junk blades.
 
the brand im talking about had suprised me since most of the older knives they made held a good edge compared to the one i had. their logo made me laugh when i thought of trying to duplicate it with the knife i had which was made here in the states. it would have had a hard time cutting through warm butter let alone anything harder. what made me decide to start making knives were these factory knives that would only let you clean a few rabbits before the edge needed sharpening. when a buddy told me he skinned 4 deer with a knife i made and it still shaved, i knew i made a good knife.
 
olddude1, the knives i make are 1075. the one i made for my buddy went unused for 4 years due to no deer killed on the farm yet it skinned 4 deer and still shaved hair after he was done. the knife was kept in a drawer unoiled but it didnt rust or show any signs of corrosion. the knife wasnt used for several more years to skin a deer but when he needed it to skin 4 deer over a year ago it was ready to go and was shaving sharp after he was done. i'm curious to know what the difference might be in the knife i made compared to the knives that didnt hold an edge.
 
I don't know...
Sometimes I'll notice that after using my knife for food prep in the kitchen I'll set it down and not use it for day or two, giving it some rest almost, and it'll actually be sharper... Does this make no sense at all since it so clearly contradicts what you all are saying?
 
I think it has something to do wiyh the stee relaxing after you have finished sharpening.

Just a thought, I too have been subject to this phenomena with some knives but not all.

Electric
 
I've been on kind of a weird mission as of late to just see how sharp I can get a knife. I've gotten some edges really scary, but it seems like after letting them sit for a few days the edges aren't so scary.

I figured this had to do with the little "edge teeth" becoming misaligned and it needing to be steeled. I've heard of this somewhere in a book somewhere.

However a friend of mine brought up an interesting idea. His theory is that when you get an edge to a certain point of sharp, then oxidation alone will cause it to dull out a little in a day or two.

Now I'm sure this is true in theory, but do you think anyone would really ever notice a difference in oxidation on an edge this sharp in only a couple of days?

I'm leaning toward them just needing to be steeled.

Yes the theory is true but there is more to it than just the air.

As you sharpen you use pressure and wear to create a edge, the pressure causes compression of the metal and with time the metal will decompress. If you ever replaced a battery in a older car with lead battery terminals and tightened them down to far you know all about this decompression effect.

There's also something called atomic migration but I don't know how much effect that would have. Maybe one of our physics guys could explain :confused:

The level of polish or "grit" you finish at can also play into how your edge will be effected. At about 10k and below the effects of the corrosion will be greater because the amount of debirs that hangs on the edge and the peaks and valley's of the scratch pattern allow a "rough" surface for the corrosion to take hold. When you mirror polish a edge the problem pretty much goes away but if there is a micro burr it will still happen. It can be a help in the case of the polished edge because the next day you can see if you got it right the first time ;) if not then you know you got more polishing to do :p
 
I have seen stainless blades dull themselves, while carbon steel blades didn't.
 
Compression/decompression and edge oxidation are not theories, they're facts of life. Some alloys are more ductile and will compress more easily/dramatically than others, which of course leads to great variances. Some environments are more corrosive and will affect different steels based on their ability to (or lack of ability) to resist that corrosion, just as others have noted. So, depending on what the conditions are, you may well see some stainless alloy "air dull" more significantly than a non-stainless brother, or one non-stainless steel lose its sharpness more quickly than another non-stainless.

Easy things to do are:
1) Don't use much pressure when you sharpen. Unless you're having to hog off huge amounts of steel in order to repair major damage, just use a comfortable (couple of fingers worth) downward pressure, like you were crushing a cherry tomato versus crushing a walnut. If your hand is getting tired from sharpening, you're pressing too hard. Compression isn't the only problem--you're likely to end up removing more material than you need, because as the tension in your hand increases, your precision drops, so you end up making more passes to get the angle right and correct your mistakes. Also, you wear out your sharpening surface much more quickly than you would otherwise.

2) As knifenut1013 mentioned, the finish on the edge can affect how well it resists corrosive influences. Of course, for some applications, a coarser edge will serve better than a polished one. Whichever you have, keeping it clean between uses will help a great deal, and once it's clean after use (or immediately after sharpening) coating it with some kind of barrier to keep corrosive agents away from it will greatly slow its degradation. There are any number of gun-protectant chemicals out there that will work very well, but even a simple wax like clear shoe polish or chapstick will help a good bit. I've been using chapstick on knives for years when on hunting trips---skinning, butchering, whatever I have to do, and then clean the blade off, make sure it's dry (so you don't trap moisture next to the steel) and coat the edge with wax. My new favorite skinner is made of M4--which rusts like there's no tomorrow if neglected--and over the five days and four antelope that it went through in Wyoming last October, it was not sharpened or touched up once. The steel had great edge retention for the cutting chores, to be sure, but all that blood and snow would have turned it into a butter knife pretty soon if I'd let them, but I didn't. It's been sitting in the safe since then, waiting for its next hunting trip--I'll check after bit for curiosity's sake, but I'll bet you it'll still pop hairs if it won't quite still whittle them.

Just as a by-the-way, alcohol wipes are another outstanding accessory in the field. Don't use them for the principle cleaning as regular dirt or water will do that just fine, but as a finishing touch to remove any oils or moisture left behind. Follow that with a pass along the edge with some chapstick and it'll stay sharp a hell of a long time.
 
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Chapstick is a very cool idea, and certainly doesn't take up much weight/room in a pack.
 
Hello-ooo? Anybody home here?

Can you people imagine what kind of complications would arise if metals compressed and decompressed like you are suggesting?

Google "atomic migration". I'll say one thing, it has almost exactly the same effect on knife edges as the "compression, decompression" theory.

Want to know why your edges seem sharper or duller day in day out? Look for something that is actually variable. Look in the mirror.
 
I don't think I understand your post, are you saying its nonsense?
 
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