Aircrew Knife and Sheath

[DeanoD]

I've been working with journeyman bladesmith, Chad Carroll ( http://www.carrollknives.com/ ) on an Aircrew knive for U.S. military flyers that wear the standard issue flight suit or the U.S. Army two piece flight uniform that incorporates the knife pocket on the inside of the left thigh.

After many years of wanting a knife for this specific purpose and 7 months of collaborating, and numerous portotypes we finally came up with something that should work very well. I won't get into the different steels or older designs that didn't work and will focus on the final prototype and first production knives. These knives are hand forged and made by Chad. We didn't like any of the over the counter spray/bake coatings (after quite a few trials/tests), so we outsourced the coatings to Walter Birdsong and his Black-T coating. So far, the coating has not been fully penetrated, even shaving mild steel with the prototype. The prototype also went through a 24 hour salt water test after coating, in which only the blade edge discolored.

I'll get the dimension specs, once the two knives/sheaths arrive here in Baghdad for a month of hardcore testing by our Iraqi AF aircrew, U.S. Combat Aviation Advisors.

Steel: Forged 52100 (heat treated by Chad) (Prototype has been cryo treated by my good friend Jeb Burnett of http://www.deepfreezecryo.com ) After some comparisons between the two knives, I will have the Production knife frozen when I return back to the states.

Sheath: kydex made by Chad

Knife coating: Black-T, Walter Birdsong

The knife/sheath fits into the knife pocket perfectly. The kydex has been molded around the paracord (550 cord) wrap. The purpose is two fold. It allows a thinner profile when in the sheath and holds the knife snuggly in the sheath so it won't fall out. This allows the knife to be easily drawn from the sheath with two fingers, by pulling the knife slightly away from the kydex, then pulling straight out. It can also be put back into the sheath with great ease, again using only two fingers. This is why the eyelets in the kydes are not at the edge, so it can flex when deploying or inserting the knife.

I will report about the balance when I get it here, but the production knife is suppose to be balanced at the thumb grooves. The production knife incorporates a chisel grind cutter, which can be used for 4-line modification by an injured crew member under a canopy, cutting yourself out of your harness (whether in the plane or hung in a tree), or for numerous other applications from airdrop loads to stripping wires for electrical repairs.

The knife incorporates a spear point, along with with a wharncliff style dagger design. It can be used in Krav Maga close quarters fighting, and be held in numerous positions in the hand. The thumb grooves and grooves at the butt of the knife, can also be used for numerous applications, such as scraping dried sealant, etching glass, and prying open panels and raking across someones face. There are 5 holes in the handle of the production knife for weight reduction and balance. The handle also has beveled edges (not square) to make a more comfortable hand grip. The handle also tapers slightly, which ensures a smooth transition to the knife butt.

If you have any questions on why we designed it the way we did, just ask. Here are a few pictures of the Prototype and Final Production Aircrew knives.

http://www.myphotolodge.com/usr/507/4093Aircrew_Prototy.jpg

http://www.myphotolodge.com/usr/507/4607Aircrew_Prototy.jpg

http://www.myphotolodge.com/usr/507/4695Aircrew_Prototy.jpg

http://www.myphotolodge.com/usr/507/4617Aircrew_Prototy.jpg

http://www.myphotolodge.com/usr/507/Aircrew_Product.jpg

 

[jdm61]

Interesting piece. Is the expectation that it will mostly replace folders? The reason I ask is that it looks to be a good bit smaller than the old fashioned Air Force survival knife. Good job:thumbup:

 

[DeanoD]

Is the expectation that it will mostly replace folders? The reason I ask is that it looks to be a good bit smaller than the old fashioned Air Force survival knife.

This is my design and has nothing to do with the Air Force issued knives, especially the large randall type in the survival vest. We do not wear those vests in country, and I wasn't even issued one. Those vests are mainly for peacetime survival situations, and long before the design of the current IBA.

There is a standard issue survival folder that has a cutter and folding knife. I won't get into its issue, but will say that most flyers are issued an automatic benchmade folding knife that easily fits inside/attaches to the knife pocket with the clip. I carry a benchmade 670 in there now.

This is my design and I only speak for myself. I wanted the largest fixed blade I could get that fit into that pocket. I'm not a fan of using folders in a fight or depending on their locking mechanism in a combat situation. I think it will work very well, but we will see how it goes after our advisors (pilots, navigators, flight engineers, loadmasters, crewchiefs) carry and use the knife on actual missions here in the desert.

My biggest concern is that the sheath system is not too big and binds/pinches when sitting in the seat. I also want to see how the idea of deployment actually works and if it will hold up over time. I think the knive design is pretty straight forward, but am also considering serrations on the wharncliff side of the blade. It would allow the crewmember to cut through the actual skin of the aircraft, instead of using a crash ax. Some testing would have to be done on that though, but we know the steel is strong enough, it would just be getting the serrations right for cutting.

I hope this answered your questions.

 

[Jeremy Horton]

Dean, i was thinking of Serrations on the top side of the blade, that would look and be be super utility in case the belt cutter was not a option, i think it looks like a no frills tool designed for the needs of the air crewman, i think a knotted para wrap would not hinder deployment and increase usability. but i think Dean and the whole crew have done a fine job designing and executing a proper blade for the job. well done guys, jeremy

 

[Kim Lau]

When do you think these would be ready to be made?

 

[Jack O'Neill]

very interesting Deane , it is very obvious that a lot of thought and effort on everybodies part went into the creation of a much needed and useable survival tool . Well done . I have a question , myself not being knowledgeable on the art of knife self defense , have heard that during the vietnam exercise personnel would dull the tip of their knives to eliminate the possibility of them getting stuck and trapped in bone . I would like to know from anybody if this is truth or myth .

 

[DeanoD]

When do you think these would be ready to be made?

After we get some hours wearing the knife/sheath, and use the knife in various applications, Chad will use that feedback and make any last minute changes that need to be incorporated into the design of either the knife or sheath. I haven't really discussed the release with Chad, as our main goal is to ensure we have the right tool for the job.

The coating took 2 months in itself, and that was with Walter moving us ahead of schedule. Cryotreatment is also another snag, as we are not sure if future knives will be treated or not. The cost/time to have it done, might not be worth the benefit in this application. Getting someone to pay for it is also something to consider, when trying to put a package together that the young military airman/soldier can afford.

So, as you can see, getting it out into everyones hands will take some time.

 

[RogerP]

A very interesting project - clearly a lot of time, thought and effort has gone into it. I look forward to hearing more.

Roger

 

[Patrickknives]

Couple of questions, the first pic shows a couple of other blade styles, were these prototypes or will you make different types of blades available? Is the back of the blade sharp?

I heard military knives with a sheath had to have two methods of retaining the blade, can the imprint of the cord wrap in the kydex back considered a method of retention. I really like that idea.

Very unique design

 

[DeanoD]

Couple of questions, the first pic shows a couple of other blade styles, were these prototypes or will you make different types of blades available? Is the back of the blade sharp?

I heard military knives with a sheath had to have two methods of retaining the blade, can the imprint of the cord wrap in the kydex back considered a method of retention.

The first picture shows the prototype inside the prototype kydex sheath. It also has the production knife below it, without wrap. The two folder blades are for two custom titanium/G10 folders that Chad is making for me. Hell, they will even have hand made titanium screws...no stainless in the knife.

The fourth picture shows the last prototype in the upper picture, and the production (one for release) model in the lower picture. The fifth picture (black and white) is the production model shown with sheath. Both sides of the blade are sharp. The production blade has a chisel grind cord cutter, which allows a sharper angle on the blade, while leaving the back side for overall strength. I felt the prototype removed too much metal in the cutter, and also weakened the knife. I have found that most stand alone cord cutters work better when they incorporate a razor sharp chisel grind.

If you look at the picture with the flight suit pocket shown, you will see that the knife pocket incorporates a snap. That would be two ways to retain the knife inside the pocket. At this point, I have no idea if this will be listed with a national stock number, for purchase directly by the military through government purchase card. I carry so many products on my person and in my bug-out bag, that are not issued or have a NSN.

 

[DeanoD]

Here is another picture from Chad's website.

 

[dave_last]

I'll get the dimension specs, once the two knives/sheaths arrive here in Baghdad for a month of hardcore testing by our Iraqi AF aircrew, U.S. Combat Aviation Advisors.

Hi DeanoD,

I like the compactness, choice of materials and sheath. It looks like you have a great knife in the making.

I have a couple of questions.

How does your knife perform compared to two US made production ASEKs the Gerber LMF II ASEK and the Ontario ASEK. You didn't give either the specs of your knife or details on what knife specs would be required to fit the the standard issue flight suit or the U.S. Army two piece flight uniform, and so it's very possible that neither of those fit that need.

That said, maybe you could put together a few words on how much you took those knives into consideration in designing your own.

Did you give any thought to Electrical insulation? The Army's Flightfax magazine July 2006 covered both Gerber and Ontario's ASEKs and discussed the issue of Electrical insulation. If you are not already aware you may want to check out the article on page 16 of the PDF:

https://crc.army.mil/Multimedia/magazines/flightfax/2006_issues/ffjuly06lite.pdf

(Either right-click on the link and save the PDF to your PC or ignore the security warning and click through)

 

[DeanoD]

How does your knife perform compared to two US made production ASEKs the Gerber LMF II ASEK and the Ontario ASEK.

My knife is not in the same category as either of those knives. Personally, I would consider both of those knives as survival type knives. I do have a "Randall" type fighting knife that I carry in one of my bug-out bags. The steel is thicker and stronger than either of those listed, but having an insulated handle and a glass breaker in one knife, is fairly unique. My Aircrew knife serves a different purpose and its ability to be carried in the flight suit knife pocket is one of its unique features. Both of the knives you listed have larger dimensions than my Aircrew knife, and are quite a bit thicker. One of the criteria is to be thin enough to fit, without binding inside the pocket. I like the paracord, because it doesn't add weight, allows for a firm grip, and fits the hand in numerous positions. I will be trying a couple different wraps when it get it here, so we will see how that goes. If I had to put my knife into a category, I would call it an Aircrew utility and close quarters fighting knife, not to be confused with a survival knife---no matter what name the company uses as their trademark.

You didn't give either the specs of your knife or details on what knife specs would be required to fit the the standard issue flight suit or the U.S. Army two piece flight uniform, and so it's very possible that neither of those fit that need.

Once the knife is finished and ready for purchase, the specs will be released. And you are correct, neither of the knives you listed will fit the pocket (too large). Only the small cord cutter that comes with the Ontario fits into the pocket. Well, most folders will also fit and hold rather well with a clip.

That said, maybe you could put together a few words on how much you took those knives into consideration in designing your own.

I didn't consider any other knife when coming up with the details of this design. I've been a flight crew member since before Desert Shield/Storm, and always wanted something else to carry, other than the issued "cheap" automatic orange folding knife, as well as the standard issue benchmade automatics that are approved for us to carry. I felt a fixed blade is the tool for the job, but could not find one that would fit properly, deploy quickly, and hold up to the environment. So, I enlisted help from an expert...Chad Carroll. He took my ideas, and went a few steps further, each and everytime we made an adjustment to the design. I think the final design exceeded both our expectations. The sheath system came to me only a couple weeks ago. I was racking my brain to figure out a way to protect the inside leg when deploying/inserting the knife. I knew the tip needed a guide of some sort, for safety. Nobody would want a sheath that would have to be removed, then put on the blade each and every time the knife came out of the pocket. I also wanted the knife to be deployed/inserted with one hand...in case of injury to the other arm. Chad came up with molding the cord into the kydex to aid in retention of the knife in the sheath. This way the blade would not have to be fitted snuggly into the kydex itself...very smart if you ask me. Since the pocket has an outside snap, the knife will be held in by two restraints, but can be easily deployed with as little as two fingers on the hand. You just pull the handle slightly outward (away from the thigh), and the knife slips right out of the sheath with ease. It inserts in the exact opposite manner.

Did you give any thought to Electrical insulation? The Army's Flightfax magazine July 2006 covered both Gerber and Ontario's ASEKs and discussed the issue of Electrical insulation. If you are not already aware you may want to check out the article on page 16 of the PDF:

https://crc.army.mil/Multimedia/magazines/flightfax/2006_issues/ffjuly06lite.pdf

(Either right-click on the link and save the PDF to your PC or ignore the security warning and click through)

No, I really didn't give insulation that much concern. But I must say the read was pretty interesting to say the least. For now, this tool will stay with a paracord wrap, and due to the size, not sure the handle could be safely made to insulate the body for use on hot wires. Since aircrew members are taught to isolate the electrical systems (buses/current limiters) before removing any components, cutting hot wires is not a concern.

Dave--Thanks for the good questions and I appreciate you taking the time out to take a look at the design.

 

[csc]

This project has been interesting and fun, it started like Deano said about 6-7 months ago. Overall I think I made about 3-4 prototypes before we were getting happy with the design. I think the basic design is a good one but there is always room for improvements. We might make the cutter a little wider with a little sharper angle to accomodate cutting more things. We might also add a serration of sorts on the top edge a little back from the tip. Those additions can always be made or left out as I make some more of the knives. Birdsongs Black-T coating is a nice looking coating and so far seems to hold up better then Gunkote and Duracoat (which I tried both).

If anyone has any questions or comments please feel free, and thanks for looking and all the comments so far.

Chad Carroll
www.carrollknives.com

 

[dave_last]

Dave--Thanks for the good questions and I appreciate you taking the time out to take a look at the design.

It's a pleasure Deano, you've been a great customer and it's always a pleasure to go the distance. Besides which I like your idea very much, it's great when rather than just going with the flow you ask yourself, how can I do this better?

I am intrigued that the Army would have been so concerned about the electrical issue when isolating the systems is standard procedure...

Anyway, best of luck on your endeavor and I hope for both you and Chad that it really catches on... who knows if you really make it big, maybe it will eventually become a production knife and I'll carry it...