Hey everyone, I'm new here, glad to 'be aboard'. Every once in a while, I have seen, mostly on Ebay, posts / ads for Al Mar Ryobi knives, and I've wondered what is the story behind them. The knives I've seen do not carry the distinctive Al Mar 'chop', but rather an "Al Mar" signature logo along with a Ryobi logo. Was this a short-term collaboration or something like that?
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Al Mar Ryobi knives
- Thread starter ellwood51
- Start date
I don't know your knife, but Al Mars are known to be counterfieted. I'v seen a lot of different ones and they have his chop. I've read that some unauthorized knives were made by Al Mar's contractor w/o markings and sold in Asia and have also read about sterile knives for US forces. I recently bought an Al Mar Eagle switchblade. I was not sure it was legit, but it had the chop. Couldn't pass it up. Found out it was legit, a 20yo limited run for Al Mar done by Paragon.
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I personally do not believe there were any "counterfeit" Al Mar knives in the strictest sense of the word. I believe this started among some Al Mar fans who differentiated between the Al Mar models that were sold in the North American market, and those which were sold in Japan and the Asian market.
All of them were manufactured by G.Sakai with whom Al Mar had a close relationship going back to 1977 when he was still working for Pete Gerber. The OEM contract allowed for G.Sakai to sell under the Al Mar brand models and they did not need to be authorized by Al Mar. The fans started calling these "counterfeits" even though they were made in the same factory as all other Al Mar models. This is different from the rather huge counterfeiting of well known brands that is coming out of Yangjiang China today. There were a few models that were subcontracted out to other Seki makers but they were all for the NA market.
After Al Mar's passing in 1992, Fadden tried to renegotiate the contract with G.Sakai and failing to achieve this at the expiry of the OEM contract, he ended the relationship with them and went to Moki. The OP's knife is a series of mostly fishing/outdoor cooking knives (as well as a couple of folders) made by G,Sakai for Ryobi which was at the time a big Fishing equipment maker, before being eclipsed out of the field by Daiwa and Shimano. These knives shared parts (like the handle/scales) used on a few Al Mar fixed blades and folders, but usually had fishing oriented blades and were sold in the domestic Japanese market.
All of them were manufactured by G.Sakai with whom Al Mar had a close relationship going back to 1977 when he was still working for Pete Gerber. The OEM contract allowed for G.Sakai to sell under the Al Mar brand models and they did not need to be authorized by Al Mar. The fans started calling these "counterfeits" even though they were made in the same factory as all other Al Mar models. This is different from the rather huge counterfeiting of well known brands that is coming out of Yangjiang China today. There were a few models that were subcontracted out to other Seki makers but they were all for the NA market.
After Al Mar's passing in 1992, Fadden tried to renegotiate the contract with G.Sakai and failing to achieve this at the expiry of the OEM contract, he ended the relationship with them and went to Moki. The OP's knife is a series of mostly fishing/outdoor cooking knives (as well as a couple of folders) made by G,Sakai for Ryobi which was at the time a big Fishing equipment maker, before being eclipsed out of the field by Daiwa and Shimano. These knives shared parts (like the handle/scales) used on a few Al Mar fixed blades and folders, but usually had fishing oriented blades and were sold in the domestic Japanese market.
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- Joined
- Jan 23, 2017
- Messages
- 978
The original deal with the OEM (G Sakai) allowed G Sakai to sell the same knives (Eagles, Falcons, etc) outside of the North American market. They seem to have liked them in Germany.
No actual counterfeit has the fit and finish of a G Sakai (or Moki, for that matter).
No actual counterfeit has the fit and finish of a G Sakai (or Moki, for that matter).
So what does one call a knife that "The OEM contract allowed for G.Sakai to sell under the Al Mar brand models and they did not need to be authorized by Al Mar"? If not a counterfeit, is it a fake? Is it an Al Mar or just a Sakai if not authorized?
I would call it a non-North American Market (NAM) Al Mar model.
The "authorization" was already included in the original OEM contract along with the use of the Al Mar brand name. So there was never any requirement for specific authorization for each Non-NAM model. Made in the same factory using the same parts as the NAM models. So it's neither a "fake" nor a "counterfeit".
One of the common issues with "fakes" and "counterfeits" is that the quality is subpar compared to the authentic one, The Non-NAM models earned
no such reputation.
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In some respects, quality can be irrelevant with a collectible like an Al Mar knife. A Sakai knife is what it is irrespective of the brand, but Al Mar's are much more collectible than other Sakai or Moki made knives. I know a dealer who has a beat to hell AG Russell One Hand knife priced at $100 but in another case has the same knife in mint condition for $25 but w/o the AGRussell mark. Is there a price difference for Al Mar vs. NAM Sakai knives?
By the way, I bought the $25 One Hander, because I thought it was cool to have a clone of a design stolen from Pat Crawford
By the way, I bought the $25 One Hander, because I thought it was cool to have a clone of a design stolen from Pat Crawford
In some respects, quality can be irrelevant with a collectible like an Al Mar knife. A Sakai knife is what it is irrespective of the brand, but Al Mar's are much more collectible than other Sakai or Moki made knives. I know a dealer who has a beat to hell AG Russell One Hand knife priced at $100 but in another case has the same knife in mint condition for $25 but w/o the AGRussell mark. Is there a price difference for Al Mar vs. NAM Sakai knives?
By the way, I bought the $25 One Hander, because I thought it was cool to have a clone of a design stolen from Pat Crawford
With any "collectible" class of product, including of course knives, many issues that guide a person's purchases go out the window. Al Mar knives have a big collector following. Some collectors will devalue a Non-NAM knife while others may not care at all. If there is a price difference it would depend entirely on the individual collector.
Your picking up the $25 One Hander knowing the origins of the knife/design represents one type of buyer. While a collector of AGR branded knives would pay $100 for the marked one, and that's another type of buyer.
BTW, this is one that I wouldn't mind having. An AGR One Hander with the blade made by Ichiro Hattori in Cowry-X Damascus. I'm sure it wouldn't be cheap though.
Your mentioning Pat Crawford reminded me that I bought one of his boot knives from him directly in AR back in 1980.
Letter, telephone call and check, pre-online ordering...lol.
With any "collectible" class of product, including of course knives, many issues that guide a person's purchases go out the window. Al Mar knives have a big collector following. Some collectors will devalue a Non-NAM knife while others may not care at all. If there is a price difference it would depend entirely on the individual collector.
Your picking up the $25 One Hander knowing the origins of the knife/design represents one type of buyer. While a collector of AGR branded knives would pay $100 for the marked one, and that's another type of buyer.
BTW, this is one that I wouldn't mind having. An AGR One Hander with the blade made by Ichiro Hattori in Cowry-X Damascus. I'm sure it wouldn't be cheap though.
Your mentioning Pat Crawford reminded me that I bought one of his boot knives from him directly in AR back in 1980.
Letter, telephone call and check, pre-online ordering...lol.
Pat makes nice boot knives, hope you carry it
I like your choice of the Cowry-X blade but prefer no scales for a One-hander. I like the pure simplicity of blade, pivot and one piece handle and lock. Pat's a smart guy. I believe he started making them again, but may be partially retired. I'd pay real money for one made by him