alternative to Fallkniv. Northern Lights?

[Metis]

hello,

i was considering a Fallkniven Njord for general big knife/camping duties. but the comments on the Forums kind of scared me off. lots of negative comments on Fallkniven's choice of sandwich steels around the VG10.

i'm considering the following as alternates:

Marble's 7" Trailmaster

Marble's 8" Ideal

Marble's Expert II

looking for:

no more than 8" blade
natural material handle (pref. stacked leather)
bowie blade w/ mild clip point

any other suggestions?

thanks for your time,

Metis

 

[misque]

Well, I have the Marble's Trailmaker with 10" 5160 blade and would recommend it highly. That is, if the person doesn't mind taking the extra care that a Carbon steel requires.
I don't mind straight Carbon steels so most anything Marble's makes is good to me. I have a handful of their knives and enjoy using them when I have the opportunity.
Anyway, I think the 7" Trailmaker would make a fine knife for your needs. I haven't had a chance to try the 8" Ideal yet, but it sure sounds sweet.

 

[Griffon]

Originally posted by Metis
i was considering a Fallkniven Njord for general big knife/camping duties. but the comments on the Forums kind of scared me off. lots of negative comments on Fallkniven's choice of sandwich steels around the VG10.

i'm considering the following as alternates:

None made of "stainless" as far as I know. If you were interested in one of Fällkniven's, wasn't it because you thought stainless/-resistant would be of some use to you?

I must have missed what scared you and I can't figure out what would be the bad thing about laminated VG-10 (apart from it costing more, but apparently they won't raise prices on the other models when they switch production). At least not compared to other stainrestistant steels.

That said, I can se other reasons for not preferring them.

 

[Metis]

"None made of "stainless" as far as I know. If you were interested in one of Fällkniven's, wasn't it because you thought stainless/-resistant would be of some use to you? "

not really. i don't actually prefer carbon or stainless. i do like carbon's edge a little better, but not enough to rule out a design i liked.

"I must have missed what scared you and I can't figure out what would be the bad thing about laminated VG-10 (apart from it costing more, but apparently they won't raise prices on the other models when they switch production). At least not compared to other stainrestistant steels. "

basically it was the opinions of forumites better versed in metalurgy than i. the consensus was that Fallkniven had used 'crap' steel on the outsides of the VG10 to pad the costs w/ no real advantage.

aesthetically i like the Fallkniven Njord/Thor very much, but if i can get a similar design w/ more piece of mind i will. that's why i asked for opinions.

M

 

[Griffon]

Originally posted by Metis
basically it was the opinions of forumites better versed in metalurgy than i. the consensus was that Fallkniven had used 'crap' steel on the outsides of the VG10 to pad the costs w/ no real advantage.

That it's stronger than non-laminated steel is clear. It's also clear that you don't cut with the sides, they're only there to give strength, so they don't need to be anything but strong and stainresistant. You want them to be expensive as well? I'd say that's no real advantage. Or you want something even more strong and bendable, if so what steel do you or others suggest?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

The blade isn't stronger, it is weaker than a full VG-10 blade. The laiminate is AISI 420 which is a very soft and weak stainless steel compared to modern cutlery steels. As for cutting with the sides, depending on how much of the laiminate makes up the edge, there could be a very signficant negative effect in this area as well.

-Cliff

 

[The General]

Hmmm, what about San Mai III Cliff? 8a and 420 J2? I would have thought a laminated blade in the style of the Japanese Katana would have proven the point, but this knife is more of a 3 layer sandwitch than a true folded steel. Right? Is that the point?

What do you think of Damascus steel Cliff? Like the 1084/L6 in my Spiral Damascus Sebenza?

 

[sniper66]

Hi Cliff!

Having read your post concerning the laminated steel in the NL series from Fallkniven,..........hmmmmmmmmmmm..........

Does that really means that the new NL series is not as strong as the solid blades in VG-10 are??

I bought the smallest out of this knives, NL4, Frey. It seems to be a very versatile knife, and I like VG-10 really a lot! Thinking that a laminated blade really would add some strength to a knife blade, I'm now a little bit confused,.......

Until now I have no complaints with any of my fallkniven, except some minor disclaims....

What I noticed concerning the NL4 is somehow "strange" : Concerning the sheath: It is made of top quality leather, they thought to many points, i.e. concealing the rivets of the belt loop on the inner side of the sheat with a plastic strip to avoid scratching the blade, but on the other hand, the rivet of the (handle) safety is not covered with anything. Result is a noticeable although minor scratching of the handle. But, frankly spoken, this knife is not considered to be a drawer queen, and years of use will for sure change the appearance by leaving some scars. Nevertheless, we'll see how it holds up over the years.

Concerning the shape of the blade it is nearly similar to the shape of the S1, only one big difference: While the S1 has a saber grind with a convex edge, the NL4 has a flat grind that really starts at the spine and moves into a very nice convex edge. Haven't really tested this knife in "real life", I can imagine that it will outcut the S1 by a wide margin. Concerning the tip there's another big difference to the S1, the tip of the NL4 is not as strong as the S1's, it's really a lot thinner and it is not intended to pry out wood from a tree or log.
The edge is more curved than the S1's, so it provides a lot of belly. I like the handle but I think it needs some treatment for regular use to make it durable, I have applied som leather wax and it seems to come up well.

I have to say clearly that this knife would not be my first choice for a survival intention if I am reduced to only one knife but together with a GB axe it would for sure fit the bill.

But I have to say that a knife should be a knife and its primary task is cutting. Do we need "sharpened prybars"?? And if yes, in how many cases? And in these cases,....wouldn't an axe be the better choice? Let's see the Northern Light series as what they are: Beautyful knifes made of very good materials in an ancient nordic tradition with nearly custom grade.

any comments welcome,

greetings,
Gerry

 

[The General]

Originally posted by sniper66
Beautyful knifes made of very good materials in an ancient nordic tradition with nearly custom grade.

any comments welcome,

First things first, they are STUNNING looking blades, but the Nordic tradition was PATTERN WELDED STEEL. This is quite a different thing. Hence my first post!

 

[Cliff Stamp]

General :

what about San Mai III

If you laminate a soft and weak steel (A) to a strong one (B), you can't get a material which is stronger than what it would be if it was all just made out of (B) no matter what way you wrap them together. Consider this simple argument. If the addition of some 420 makes for a stronger material and since there is no complicated reaction between the 420 and VG-10, would it not be logical to assume that more 420 and less VG-10 would be stronger still? Taking this to its natural conclusion - a pure 420 blade would be the strongest form.

I would have thought a laminated blade in the style of the Japanese Katana would have proven the point

The main driving force behind this was usually cost as the harder steel was too expensive to make the whole tool. This is why for example the vast majority of Japanese blades and wood working tools just have the edges the hard cutting steel. Now you can make an arguement for higher impact toughness of the laminate, and greater ductility, but this is being made at the cost of strength.

With modern high strength + high toughness alloys (3V), there really isn't any need for this type of mix and matching as you can get a really high combination of properties across the board in the one material. Though I would be curious about something like CPM-125V and CPM-1V in a laminate. The crucial problem would be if the 1V would absorb enough of the impacts to stop the 125V from cracking.

What do you think of Damascus steel

Something I intend to look at. The ability of edge contrast is often promoted, but I have my doubts that it would function in the way described. Though again I would question the benefits as compared to a modern alloy steel picked for the specific intended usage.

Gerry :

Do we need "sharpened prybars"?? And if yes, in how many cases?

This is up to the user. I have many blades that would snap under very light prying loads, I have some that won't. They both have their uses.

-Cliff

 

[Griffon]

Originally posted by Cliff Stamp
The blade isn't stronger, it is weaker than a full VG-10 blade.

You mean there's some kind of methodology error here: http://www.fallkniven.se/test.htm ? Or you mean a all-VG-10 blade is stiffer, as in resisting bending better? If the latter, is this really "better"?

 

[The General]

Sorry Cliff but the Japanese developed folded steel with differential heat tempering as it makes a better sword, not to cut costs. Same with the Nordic swords and those from the Damascus region. This is not some PH.D Phantasy! Yes I know how to spell...

Truth is, in battle you use the best blade you can, the best were pattern welded or folded steel. There are documented cases of such Nordic blades cutting swords in half without any real damage or cutting men from collor bone to crotch via chain mail armour. This is not the work of poor workmanship or a bad design.

The VG10 cuts, the thickness is thus a lot less as it does not need the full thickness. Thus is would be more flexable anyway and the sandwitch of low carbon steel gives it added flexability, shock resistance and ductability.

In short a knife that perhaps bends more easily, but is more able to resist catastrophic blade failure like the swords of old.

I would prefer folded steel mind.

I think the question must be, are the good points of this type of steel outweighed by the lost of tensile strength in a knife rather than a sword?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Griffon :

Or you mean a all-VG-10 blade is stiffer, as in resisting bending better?

Yes, that is how strength is commonly defined. If you look at the graphs you will see that the VG-10 blades take significantly more force to bend a given amount. If you had people pry with both of them I would be very surprised if they called the one that bent easier the stronger one. Specifically compare the yield points and not the tensile ones (which the graphs do), as once you pass the yield points the knife is serious damaged anyway.

If the latter, is this really "better"?

In regards to edge holding very much so, in regards to prying it means more force will be required before the blade takes a set which is the point at which the vast majority of people will call it "broken", so I would argue that is the relevant criteria not the point at which the metal finally tears.

Wayne :

This is not the work of poor workmanship or a bad design.

Of course not, however we have gained knowledge and materials why be blind to that? As an example, I have a friend who is a traditional knifemaker. His blades are used by people who depend on them for their daily work as well as various combative applications, actual use, not just training. His knowledge was learned by a traditional maker, and the roots of which can go back many generations I am sure.

While discussing knife making he commented that after forging he let the blades air cool. When I asked why he didn't quench them , he replied they were then far too brittle. They had never been introduced to the idea of tempering. Should they ignore this "modern" idea in favor of the traditional methods, hardly. He can make better blades with quenched and tempered steels.

Can you by wrapping a soft steel around a hard one get a more impact resistant material - of course, I said so in the above. However is the strength to impact toughness anywhere hear what you get in a modern shock resistant alloy - no it isn't. That is why we have such alloys.

-Cliff

 

[Griffon]

Originally posted by Cliff Stamp
If you had people pry with both of them I would be very surprised if they called the one that bent easier the stronger one.

I think it's likely they would, if they broke the stiffer one.
And since one will also bend more before breaking, that further reduces the risk it'll actually break.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Griffon :

I think it's likely they would, if they broke the stiffer one.

The laminate would take a permanent set before the VG-10 blade and be bending easier while doing so. At this point it is seriously damaged while the VG-10 blade is fine. Considering the properties of the edge, this is the critical points as edge ripples are far more of a concern than gross edge breakouts with wood cutting blades.

And since one will also bend more before breaking, that further reduces the risk it'll actually break.

It has already "broken" long before this point. When a blade takes a permanent set, its durability has been seriously compromised. Yes if you keep bending it the VG-10 blade will snap before the laminate, but a pure AISI-420 blade would go even further, so by that logic it is stronger than VG-10. No, it is more ductile.

-Cliff