aluminum handle on ak-47?

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dghboy315

Joined
Mar 31, 2004
Messages
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how important is it to get the aluminum handle on the ak-47? i read on one of these threads that if you wanted to use the sword as a martial art practice sword, you needed to get it w/ the aluminum handle so the balance would be better. is this true?

i find it kind of strange that the swords would not come balanced correctly and it would take and extra $$ to make it so. since it was designed as a sword, should it not come balanced for optimal use as a sword?

thanks any input.
 
dghboy315 said:
A how important is it to get the aluminum handle on the ak-47? i read on one of these threads that if you wanted to use the sword as a martial art practice sword, you needed to get it w/ the aluminum handle so the balance would be better. is this true?

B i find it kind of strange that the swords would not come balanced correctly and it would take and extra $$ to make it so. since it was designed as a sword, should it not come balanced for optimal use as a sword?
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A. Yes it is true, it comes the mouth of the Big HOG himself, Mr. Jerry Busse. The balance will be better, but he never said that it would be better as a MA practice sword, it was speculated upon by we, the theorists, I personally believe this to be true, but I'm not a swordsman.

B. This is a little insulting. It really just depends on how you look at it. If you wish the aluminum, then buy it. Rather than suggest that it is not balanced correctly, consider it a differently balanced object OR be happy that Jerry is giving us a price break for using micarta.

C. Either way, there is no other sword that you can buy that will be nearly as strong as this one for ANY price. It really is a bargain, especially when you consider what handmade swords cost. See the destructive testing thread for further details.
 
take the straight handled battle mistress, the ergo battle mistress, and the fusion battle mistress. then, just for giggles, take a 20" HI ang khola (weighted very heavily towards the blade)

each one is differently balanced.

wich one is the "optimal chopping balance"?

none of them. each one has its good points, but none are "perfect" wich seems to be what your aiming to get by way of it being "optimal". a chopping knife that is balanced near the handle will be lighter in the hand, and cause less fatigue (as long as the handle is at least slightly ergonomic), where as a knife that is balanced forward will chop harder, and be easier to get penetration per hit - it will cause fatigue faster. wich is better? neigther overall - it depends on the job. if your getting job specific, and person specific, then yes there is a better, but not as a generality.

likewise goes for the sword. some would prefer, and be able to use more easily/to better advantage a sword that is more blade heavy, likewise some would prefer a sword that is more handle heavy/nuetral balnced.


personally - i would say that a slightly blade heavy sword is better, as long as the sword is not monstrously weighted. like most things, once you condition your body to being used to a heavier/harder load - it will start neutralizing itself a little. if you start doing sword kata's with the same length of 2x4's with handle cut outs - that sword will very quickly become lighter in the hand as your foream, grip, and wrist strength increase by the use of a heavier larger object in the same manner.


balance is job and person specific (as long as its not completely different, like a hammer vs. a filet knife) as far as whats "perfect"; so to say that the balance point being different by literally 1" on a 30" sword makes the difference between it being "perfect" is faulty for a lot of reasons.




as a second thought on the subject - lets totally disregard balance for a moment. lets say that a person wants more choices for handle materials, so jerry gives them aluminum and g10 along side micarta. the aluminum is more difficult to machine, and it is more costly per pound then micarta, so he offers it at a slightly higher price.

it just happens to be slightly heavier then micarta, wich makes the sword balance more towards the handle. this was not an initially intended effect, moreso it was a side effect of one of the options the customers asked for.

just another possibility as to why things are as the are.
 
Walking Man said:
B. This is a little insulting. It really just depends on how you look at it. If you wish the aluminum, then buy it. Rather than suggest that it is not balanced correctly, consider it a differently balanced object OR be happy that Jerry is giving us a price break for using micarta.
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Whoa there big fella!! I don't think the question was insulting at all, just someone looking for an honest answer.

I too, would like to know the difference in performance between the two differently balanced blades.

I'm guessing that the micarta handled blade is better for chopping (because it's blade heavy), and that the aluminum handled blade is better for maneuvering (because it's center balanced).
 
dghboy315 said:
i find it kind of strange that the swords would not come balanced correctly and it would take and extra $$ to make it so. since it was designed as a sword, should it not come balanced for optimal use as a sword?

thanks any input.
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If I was out of line, I'm sorry, but I think that question could have been asked better.
Here are potential interpretations:
Blue: Jerry doesn't know how to make a knife the "right" way
Red: Jerry is attempting to gouge extra money from us.
Now, having said that, I don't believe that anything was meant by it.
 
no insult intended. sorry for the poorly worded question.

thanks for the responses. that was what i was looking for. i'm just trying to figure out whether i need to sell that extra pint of blood. did any of you guys order the aluminum handles for the better balance?

i just got this big problem of wanting the best, including the best value as well as the best quality. i know there is no such thing as the "best", but i still NEED to have the best. i wish i could try them out. or, really what i want is to be able to afford 2 of them. but since i can't, i guess i gotta do more thinking.
 
dghboy315 said:
thanks for the responses. that was what i was looking for. i'm just trying to figure out whether i need to sell that extra pint of blood. did any of you guys order the aluminum handles for the better balance?

i just got this big problem of wanting the best, including the best value as well as the best quality. i know there is no such thing as the "best", but i still NEED to have the best. i wish i could try them out. or, really what i want is to be able to afford 2 of them. but since i can't, i guess i gotta do more thinking.
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1) Nope, I ordered the micarta handles, I also don't think most of us are martial artists, I'm not. I had considered getting the alum. handles, but I couldn't justify the extra cost. I don't how much the alum. handles will change the balance. Maybe you should call the shop. It's listed on the Busse site.
2) I know EXACTLY what you mean about wanting the best. I think it's what brought a lot of us here. Part of why I chose the micarta is that if there's any scratches or anything, I could easily sandpaper them out, (or in a worst case get them replaced) whereas I'm don't know how repairable the alum. handles will be, maybe you should ask the shop this as well.
I'm sorry I couldn't answer you questions more completely.
 
I'm not an expert on swords, but for me the combination of a relatively short blade and long handle, along with a thinner blade, I think I would actually prefer the micarta handle to put the balance more forward. Here are the AK-47 specs:
- blade length = 18 1/2"
- handle length = 10 1/2"
- blade thickness = 3/16"
- weight = 30 oz. (micarta handle), 36 oz. (aluminum handle)

Just as a comparison, the Cold Steel Wakazashi has:
- blade length = 21 1/8"
- handle length = 6 1/2"
- blade thickness = 9/32"
- weight = 27.3 oz.
On the Cold Steel with a longer and heavier blade, especially with the short handle, I would want more weight in the handle, but I think the AK-47 will do well with the lighter micarta handle.

Gene
 
dghboy315 said:
did any of you guys order the aluminum handles for the better balance?
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again i feel that i have to stress that having a more handle heavy balance is not necessarily "better". if anything, i'd prefer the blade to be longer to give a more blade heavy balance, so for me - the aluminum handles would be the lesser quality balance of the two.

for me. wich is the key statement - because one is not universally "better" then the other.

i sound like a broken record - but there is no hardline "better" choice = you have to decide wether you want the your balance point to be at the curve on the handle side of the gaurd, or to have the balance point at the finger choil - for your preference. because neither is "better" for everyone as a general rule, both have their benefits, both have their downsides.
 
SethMurdoc, when you refer to balance, you are refering to it in terms of chopping, which is why you've said that a more forward heavy knife is better for you.
In order to truly answer this question, which I cannot, you must keep it terms of a MA standpoint, which is the original question.
For most fighting bowies (I know... The AK isn't a knife it's a sword....) it is said that if it feels light in the hand it has a good balance to it, and this is a desirable trait for such a knife..
Yes, there are many different fighting styles, but I have often read that a knife or sword with better balance is more desirable. HOWEVER, I can only remember seeing this in reference to Western swords.
Now, having said all that without giving any kind of specific answer whatsoever, CALL THE SHOP!!!!!!! and let us know what you hear. Thanks.
 
Walking Man said:
SethMurdoc, when you refer to balance, you are refering to it in terms of chopping, which is why you've said that a more forward heavy knife is better for you.
In order to truly answer this question, which I cannot, you must keep it terms of a MA standpoint, which is the original question.
For most fighting bowies (I know... The AK isn't a knife it's a sword....) it is said that if it feels light in the hand it has a good balance to it, and this is a desirable trait for such a knife..
Yes, there are many different fighting styles, but I have often read that a knife or sword with better balance is more desirable. HOWEVER, I can only remember seeing this in reference to Western swords.
Now, having said all that without giving any kind of specific answer whatsoever, CALL THE SHOP!!!!!!! and let us know what you hear. Thanks.
Click to expand...

i am also refering to it in regards to martial arts. to assume that there is a one and only way in martial arts is just as bad as assuming there is one and only way in woodcraft.

everything i said is in regards to martial arts - a sword that has no weight to the blade will require iether much greater speed, or power cuts, meaning you will have to set your body up so that you can push through your opponent rather then allowing the blade to "sail through him"

thats fine - BUT. thats just one way of doing it. it is not necessarily the better way.

take a handle weighted bowie and then take a blade weighted khukuri - totally different beasts, both fully capable in fighting. a khukuri in a battle feild is something you can use on limbs, one hit takes down whatever limb you hit with it, a head shot is an instant kill. thats really just how it is when you have 2lbs behind your cutting edge.

with the bowie, it will insert itself (if it has a thin pointed tip) into most kevlar and fabric based armor, so that stabbing is made much easier.

both are effective - neither are "the only right way" or the particularly "better way". both are better for their situation.


there are benefits to a blade heavy balance in a fight - it helps you sink the blade in without using your body to push it, you can use the simple momentum of the blade to do most of the cutting for you.

i just really have a pet peave when people tell me there is only one blade shape that is right for a very broad subject. martial arts and wood craft are VERY broad subjects, that have a great deal of varied situatins, all of wich calling for slight or major variations in blade design to be "optimal" for that person - for that situation.
 
Besides power there are other benefits to blade heavy balance, how the mass is distributed should not simply be influenced by how heavy the blade feels in hand and when you rotate it (which can be different) but as well how it feels when striking a target. It is easily possible to have a bowie for example which is light in hand as the balance is few neutral but have little ability to work with the tip because the mass is too close clustered to the grip. A good place to start would be reading some of possom's posts on balance with regards to his large bowies (some of which approach sword length) and which are used as fighting knives with secondary utility usage, note specifically that cutting power can be increased in both applications at the same time.

-Cliff
 
SethMurdoc,
I understand what you are getting at, I don't mean to make you or anyone angry. However, given the question, Wouldn't be helpful to answer it a way that reflects the optimal use for general purpose MA or woodcraft? After all, the law of averages can be a powerful thing sometimes.
 
if the question were "what are the benefits the blade being handle heavy over blade heavy?", i would have responded differently. im not angry at all, i'm just not willing to let that point go without a fight :D

as an example of why a blade heavy sword would be better then a handle heavy one - if you look at the thickness' and geometry of katana's, the swords that are meant to go through armor are generally thicker and more obtuse geometry. part of that structure makes it more blade heavy, wich can help carry the momentum of the blade down onto and into your opponent.

jerry has specifically stated that the ak47 was designed to perform best against softer cutting targets, in the rice matt area of hardness, so the geometry is thinner and lighter then something meant to cut through armor.

but the same applies to the thinner geometry, having the weight forward helps the weight and momentum of the sword carry itself through the arc, helping out in keeping the sword going as it cuts through the target. likewise it can help in getting more power out of the cut.

the benefit of having the balance closer to the handle being that the swords pivit point (balance point) is centered closer to or on the front hand, so that turning the sword is easier and faster.

with this set of configurations, aluminum vs. micarta, the differences is only 3-5oz, a difference of no more then 1-2"" worth of balance point shift. i honestly think that to a large degree the difference will be negligable, and very easily counterbalanced by practice and getting used to it. you'll have a preference, but you'll be able to use and get used to both.

i beleive that the difference will be similar to the straight handled battle mistress vs. the ergo battle mistress. they both perform differently in use while woodworking, but they both have their advantages. one is not inherently better then the other, unless you are being more task specific. the straight handled will get heavier cuts, more penetration, the ergo will wear your hand out less, and will have faster and easier snap cuts. i would much prefer the straight handled, but i understand why one would choose the ergo handle.


and there in lies my problem with answering the question. if your asking wich is more optimal for a specific style, i think the answer would be more appropriate. but in general, "martial arts" refering to the swords use against a human target - i think the difference is negligable, and will have little effect once you get used to it. i would prefer the blade heavy weighting, with a lighter full weight.
 
well according to the company, the aluminum handles weigh 6oz more and change the balance point by 1/2 inch. this was not a big deal for me, so i ended up ordering a urban gray blade w/ tan micarta handle! about six week they said. can't wait!
 
good choice, handles are subjective, on anything.

take the 1911 for example, some like rubber with finger grooves for more control, but rubber snags clothing and finger grooves slow down a otherwise fast draw while your fingers find the grooves.
some like smooth wood or wood with checkering, front straps smooth or checkered as the rear. flat or humped main spring housing.

buy what you like, you will have to live with it or i you can sell it probably for more than you paid for it!

i for one like micarta, it is "warm" to the touch, if i drop it it won't ding and scratch, it won't rattle as loud against other objects. did i say i like micarta? :confused:
 
idahoskunk said:
i for one like micarta, it is "warm" to the touch, if i drop it it won't ding and scratch, it won't rattle as loud against other objects. did i say i like micarta? :confused:
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With the coating, rattling shouldn't be a problem. Can't say for sure though.
 
idahoskunk said:
good choice, handles are subjective, on anything.

take the 1911 for example, some like rubber with finger grooves for more control, but rubber snags clothing and finger grooves slow down a otherwise fast draw while your fingers find the grooves.
some like smooth wood or wood with checkering, front straps smooth or checkered as the rear. flat or humped main spring housing.

buy what you like, you will have to live with it or i you can sell it probably for more than you paid for it!

i for one like micarta, it is "warm" to the touch, if i drop it it won't ding and scratch, it won't rattle as loud against other objects. did i say i like micarta? :confused:
Click to expand...

Have you tried the micarta grips on your 1911 yet? I was thinking of trying them on mine.
 
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