Am I a Master Smith ?

Fred.Rowe

Fred.Rowe

Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
Joined
May 2, 2004
Messages
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I posted, my opinion, on a thread titled: Am I a knifemaker?, that is currently runnig on this page. As expecdted, there were the full spectrum of opinions expressed, from, if you put a handle on it, you are one, to the more conservative, not likley.

Thinking in this same vein, I asked myself; "when can a knifemaker think of him or her self as having mastered knifemaking". The much esteemed; title of Mastersmith. Not bestowed by an organization as part of passing a set of standardized test, but as a measure of overall knowledge and skill. I am not asking this question in order to assess my own standing as a maker, I am far to critical of my own work to think of myself in this way, but, what of makers that choose not to join an organization, who will judge them to be masters at some stage? when do you think of someones skills and knowledge to have risen to such a hight?
I believe the standard has been set by makers throughout thousands of years of edged weapon history. In order to clear the bar you should set your standards pretty high, to be judged by history as a Master
of anything.
Thinking along these lines, the person who puts a handle on a blade is not a knifemaker, they are somewhere in between; the beginning, taking up this craft, and striving to master it.

There is no questioning here of the merits of this or that organization, they have helped to set a contemporary standard. I am asking this question with a more historical perspective.
My views, stated here, are influenced by my studies in the martial arts over
the last 15 years. I have attained the rank of 2nd degree in the Shuri Ryu
system and feel myself to be but a "babe in the woods" There will be no mastery here, just the journey.

With respect for all, Fred
 
Down at my union local 242, it goes like this :
Apprentice
Journeyman
Master.

The Apprentice works under the watchfull eye of the master.

The Journeyman can go whereever he wants, he does not have to work with anyone, he can do what he wants, he is free to be his own boss.


But from my point of view, the term "Master" only has meaning if the person means to pass on to the next generation what he has learned.

To this end, I dont believe that just knowing all there is to know about making a knife makes you a "Master"

The term has to be connected to some system or org where work and craftmanship can be tested, and students can learn from teachers..

So in other words, If you knew all there was to know about making a knife, I still would never call you a "Master"
But if You joined some type of guild or other Knifemaker Org and passed their tests, and then made such an effort to pass on to others what you have learned from others, then I would call you a "Master"
 
Fred??? I am trying to turn over a new leaf this year and you are making it tough.:rolleyes: No matter what else is said here I always considered you a MASTER, but not in the knife arena.:jerkit: :jerkit:
 
I ask more questions than answer them here. The more I know the more I realize how much I dont know. I may be able to grind a straight line but a teacher Im not. It still leaves me in awe every time that soft steel comes out of the quench hard!

It is a good feeling to have my work judged by seasoned masters and given their stamp of approval. Its also a good business move to join an organization that is as dedicated to the forged blade as the ABS and work your way up the ladder. Many people still dont have any idea what a good knife is until you educate them. Thats why they are still buying elcheapo imports and thinking they really have something. Without standards they will buy anything.

Im not satisfied with my skills and more than likely never will reach my goals but Im really glad there is an organization like the ABS and its fine members and nonmembers here that I can contact and get help in my quest for satisfaction.
 
You know what is nice about philosophical questions? They are like taste questions (e.g. What is you favorite single malt?) on these forums. They provide a refreshing break where all can voice an opinion that is different and each one can be correct. At least that is what got my finger typing here.

I don’t think anybody should ever proclaim themselves a “master”. I believe propriety demands that. For an integral quality of any true master I have met was humility. Shysters and snake oil salesmen habitually call themselves masters, real masters don’t need to. Anybody who gets hung up on calling themselves a master runs the risk of ceasing to be a student and then they are neither, since a true master isn’t nearly as proud of how much he knows as he is aware of how much he doesn’t know.

That’s not to say that the ABS can’t give out such a rating, or any other group of ones peers, for that matter. But that is the qualifier; only your peers can give you such a title and have it actually mean anything. How many “self proclaimed” Nobel Prize winners have you heard of? If anybody could hang such a title around their own neck it wouldn’t be worth the cheap tin it would be made of. Not that such a title is in the medal or a stamp either. I have said many times before “The knife justifies the M.S. stamp, not the other way around!” You could stamp an M.S. on any clunky piece of steel and anybody who sees it as anything more than a well polished turd with a stamp on it has lost their faculties of reason to marketing.

I always prefer to specify “ABS certified” when referring to the M.S. rating and remind myself of what a martial arts instructor told us years ago when the black belt was achieved “Congratulations, you are now masters of the most basic techniques!”:( . I have seen some guys who the worst thing that ever happened to their knifemaking was getting a master stamp, those fives knives in Atlanta were the best knives they ever made, before or since. I want to always look at that rating as just one rung on the ladder, and I am pleased to take any of the knives I was judged on out and look at them once and a while to make myself shudder and see the progress I am making beyond that point. If I were going to buy an ABS master smith knife, I would want one from the guy who five years after his judging cringes at the thought of being judged on the same five knives.
 
By your definition I would be the apprentice Alan,because for about the last two years I have been going to Fred's shop for a few hours each week.Trust me when I say he has definitely made an effort to pass on what he has learned,and with me doing the learning it takes a lot of effort to do the teaching."Master" that's not for me to say,but I can say he is a hell of a teacher and a damn fine friend.THANKS FRED !!
 
Bruce Bump said:
...It is a good feeling to have my work judged by seasoned masters and given their stamp of approval. Its also a good business move to join an organization that is as dedicated to the forged blade as the ABS and work your way up the ladder...
Click to expand...

Bruce, I don't know if you remember me there but I was one of the guys who voted to give you your stamp, I stand by that decision and always wanted to let you know that although the competition was stiff, your dagger had my vote for the special award. :thumbup:
 
Back in olden oriental times, the expert/teacher/leader was called Master by his students out of respect for the skills and teaching and leadership efforts they shared.

I guess, excluding the designation one can earn as Master Smith from the ABS, there are definitely knifemakers who are not, nor ever will be able to earn that designation as they aren't "forger/makers" but they are experts in their style of making knives. They are willing to teach and share. They are perceived as Leaders in the knifemaking community.
There are also very skilled Master Smiths in the ABS who are expert, who teach, who are perceived as Leaders in the knifemaking community.

I feel we in the knifemaking community are richer because these folks are willing to be experts/resources/teachers...from a respect for the individual and his/her willingness to teach, point of view, they could be called Master...
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
Bruce, I don't know if you remember me there but I was one of the guys who voted to give you your stamp, I stand by that decision and always wanted to let you know that although the competition was stiff, your dagger had my vote for the special award. :thumbup:
Click to expand...

Really? I didnt know that. You made my day.
 
John R. Fraps said:
I feel we in the knifemaking community are richer because these folks are willing to be experts/resources/teachers...from a respect for the individual and his/her willingness to teach, point of view, they could be called Master...
Click to expand...

Yes in my view, the ABS stamp of Master Smith should mean to us, that the person is judged to now know enough to pass on the basics...
 
Master is generally taken to be a given title and rating of respect. If not bestowed by some peer group or guild it is self proclaimed, and casts doubt upon the claimant. I would not call myself a Master Smith, regardless of my skill ,unless it was bestowed upon me by some group.
I am one of the most experienced goldsmiths in my area, but laugh at those who advertise themselves as Master Jewelers.The testing for master jeweler status is basically a joke done by some guilds and supply companies.A very small percentage of truly experienced goldsmiths ever bother to take the test.On the other hand being GIA certified as a diamond grading expert is valuable (and becoming required). I taught gemology and diamond grading to many people before taking the GIA course. Yes it is partly a way to perpetuate the GIA supremacy myth (as some feel about the ABS),and to keep the GIA in the big money, but it does prove you have attained a certain level of knowledge and skill.

If you have earned a title, be proud of it, if you have earned the respect of your peers,as an accomplished artisan, be more proud of that.

Stacy
 
I think my brush was too broad in my original post.:foot:


I don't believe you can compare smiths from different times. It seems that a bladesmith should be judged by and compared with his contemporaries.
The standards of the time must be the rules used to judge. Otherwise it's apples and oranges, that you are comparing.

It would be hard to compare a smith from the Heian period [794-1185]
working in Japan, to a modern smith working in a solo shop in 2007.
They made really nice blades in the Heian period.:thumbup:

I appreciate the responces to my broad inquiry. I am always learning from my experiences here.

Fred
 
A master loves what he is doing and does it well and is proud of his work. A master knows himself and judges his work as well as himself squarely. The work of masters are what they are because they are products from men who dared to be like themselves. Individuals who paid the price but remained true to themselves. Their work is timeless, a master today will recognize the work of a master centuries ago, it will speak to him, he can feel it, hear it, see it and know the message passed down for those who can will learn and know.
 
No true Master in any endeavor existed without individuals who felt subordinate to his skills and knowledge. No true Master has existed who did not pass on those skills and knowledge to those subordinates.

IMHO, if two makers are of equal status as far as their quality and workmanship are concerned, with the only difference being that the first passes his knowledge and skills on to those (in their own opinion) who are subordinate to his skills, and the other although as highly skilled, but is not looked up to by others and is unwilling to share his knowledge, skills and secrets, then the first is a Master. The second is a world class artisan of his craft, but is not looked up to. The second does not have subordinates and is not a Master. To be Master of anything, you must have someone to be a Master of.

I also agree that Masters are not self-proclaimed, but are Masters by consensus of their peers.
 
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