Am I the only one who does it backwards?

J

J Thomas

Joined
Feb 26, 2003
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67
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Since I seriously started learning and practicing free hand sharpening there seems to be an option of folks using diamonds for rough work and water stones for the finish work.

For the life of me, I can't finish with waterstones ... at all. My best edges come from using Shapton Glass Stones to do the edge profile / re-profile, set a bevel and then go to diamonds for the finish work.

2000 Shapton Glass, seems to have me going backwards on my edge sharpness, however, a well worn DMT Coarse followed by a Spyderco Medium Benchstone ... now were talking.

This journey is frustrating and rewarding all in the same sharpening session.

For now, I'm trying to sharpen at least half an hour each day, sometimes waterstones, sometimes diamonds, sometimes Spyderco Ceramics and then the d) All the above mix and match day every few sessions.

This hobby gets in your blood something fierce.

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Do whatever works for you. I only have use of my right hand, very little feeling in the left, so my technique is probably considered weird. Had to learn straight edge razor shaving with one hand. Had to give a little blood till I got that down. Lol
 
Since no one's replied yet. I'll take a stab.

I believe the reason most people end with the shapton glass stones is you get more refinement out of the ceramic than a diamond stone of the same micron size. The diamonds tend to cut deeper as they're immobile if you're using the correct pressure whereas the ceramic fragments a bit as you use it.

I'm sure for reprofiling you can choose your type of poison as it's mainly removal of metal.

What you might try to do with your Shapton glass is to make sure it's in the right grit/ micron size progression, change / lighten your pressure, do only edge trailing strokes especially for the final strokes instead of back and forth (feel free to do edge leading also), or maybe even change your angle perhaps. these are just suggestions for you to experiment on.

Also, as you move to the next grit, make sure the edge is clean and fully apexed. The fully apexed should be achieve even with the first stone as the succeeding stones are simply for refinement.
 
I've read at other sharpening fora that it's not optimal to finish on a stone that creates a slurry, because the slurry can dull your apex very slightly on edge-leading strokes. For that reason thhe suggestion is to do final deburring and microbevel on something that doesn't make a slurry, like diamonds or ceramic.
 
Dontheo, Rey HRH and Dangerously ... Thanks for the feedback and advice. I'll work in your suggestions and see how the results turn out. All the best.
 
When I first got into Waterstones I couldn't get a good edge to save my life I still do better with diamonds and op I've been in your shoes more than I'll ever admit in public .

I've started with water stones from 220 and went to 10k to only go back to a dmt 325 after the 10k because I hated the edge .

I've always got a better edge off diamonds and I have a theory it has to do with the toothiness you get from diamonds . Seems to me they allow for a little more sloppy technique and instead of rounding and edge they just make a new one . Hard to explain and it's just a theory so don't scold me too hard it's hard to explain what I'm trying to say .

I will say since I've learned to sharpen I get my best edges off of coarse grit stones.
 
Hi,
Can you be more specific/descriptive about what you do?

FWIW, cliff stamp talks about this,
using a soft/weak bond stone,
one that release grit with low pressure and builds up mud/slurry,
to prepare an edge for an apex ("shaping", erasing a reflection),
because the mud will plough into the apex and grind off burrs,
leaving the edge in perfect condition for a final microbevel
using a harder slurry-free stone like diamonds, arkansas, sharpmaker


If trying to set the apex/ final sharpness with waterstone,
the recommendation is flush the slurry,
then microbevel using ultra light alternating strokes
if the stone is too soft then this is very difficult
if the stone is hard enough then its almost trivial

One place he talks about it is Naniwa Aotoshi 2000 stone review
 
Spartan00 said:
When I first got into Waterstones I couldn't get a good edge to save my life I still do better with diamonds and op I've been in your shoes more than I'll ever admit in public .

I've started with water stones from 220 and went to 10k to only go back to a dmt 325 after the 10k because I hated the edge .

I've always got a better edge off diamonds and I have a theory it has to do with the toothiness you get from diamonds . Seems to me they allow for a little more sloppy technique and instead of rounding and edge they just make a new one . Hard to explain and it's just a theory so don't scold me too hard it's hard to explain what I'm trying to say .

I will say since I've learned to sharpen I get my best edges off of coarse grit stones.
Click to expand...

This was me too for awhile when I started into waterstones. Heck, the guy that sold me my King 1200 didn't even know the difference between grit ratings - I couldn't understand why it was always a rougher edge than my hard Arkansas.

Then I picked up some Nortons and that was a real mess - I had no idea you could backhone on softer stones or that it actually becomes necessary sometimes. That went against everything I thought I understood re sharpening and burr formation. I put those stones back on the shelf for a long time and didn't look at them again.

But then, there's those darn Murray Carter videos - it HAS to be possible, I'm watching it with my own two eyes!


The waterstones are tougher to develop a feel for, no doubt. And definitely going to a super high polish even when done right can make you very aware of how different finishes effect cutting - To the OP, test at every level as you go up, and on a variety of tasks.

These have been linked before, some great reading to sort of put things in context re abrasive process relative to sharpening. Also a great resource for trying out different sharpening strategies.


https://bosq.home.xs4all.nl/info 20m/grinding_and_honing_part_1.pdf

https://bosq.home.xs4all.nl/info 20m/grinding_and_honing_part_2.pdf

This is what got me into sharpening with honing compounds on hardwood, which happened in conjunction with getting a lot better results from my waterstones.

and an older video showing it in action:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl5Hkr_eLXk

Edit to add: I don't think I have a favorite sharpening media or default finish level anymore, tho I do prefer wet/dry over Washboard or my waterstones just for speed sake, and seldom go higher than 8k. Often I just grab a silicon carbide combination stone and some creative stropping. If working high carbide steel I reach for my diamonds but otherwise they don't see a lot of daylight.
 
Last edited:
Spartan00 said:
When I first got into Waterstones I couldn't get a good edge to save my life I still do better with diamonds and op I've been in your shoes more than I'll ever admit in public .

I've started with water stones from 220 and went to 10k to only go back to a dmt 325 after the 10k because I hated the edge .

I've always got a better edge off diamonds and I have a theory it has to do with the toothiness you get from diamonds . Seems to me they allow for a little more sloppy technique and instead of rounding and edge they just make a new one . Hard to explain and it's just a theory so don't scold me too hard it's hard to explain what I'm trying to say .

I will say since I've learned to sharpen I get my best edges off of coarse grit stones.
Click to expand...

Thank You ... I'm not alone. =)
 
HeavyHanded said:
Edit to add: I don't think I have a favorite sharpening media or default finish level anymore, tho I do prefer wet/dry over Washboard or my waterstones just for speed sake, and seldom go higher than 8k. Often I just grab a silicon carbide combination stone and some creative stropping. If working high carbide steel I reach for my diamonds but otherwise they don't see a lot of daylight.
Click to expand...
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HeavyHanded ... Thank You for the links and for sharing some of your sharpening journey. I guess I've always gravitated toward the "how simple can I make something" way of process. With sharpening, there are so many variables ... I don't think I can just come up with one failsafe method. I'll keep at and learn something new and applicable each day, appreciate the help in that endeavor.

All the best.
 
Shapton glass stones used to give me the most trouble , I basically wrote them off. Of course it was me and not the stone ,but for the sake of my ego I blamed the stone lol.

Like heavy-handed said , and listen to him he helped me out a ton . I would have a great edge off a Shapton 1k and round the edge trying to make it perfect .

Then I started out on the coarsest stone I had and I still won't come off that coarse stone until I have an edge I could put in my pocket and go about my business with . Half of my time maybe more I spend on the first stone .

If I want more refinement now since the knife is sharp as I like it off the coarsest stone I do very light edge trailing strokes on the edge , if I polish a bevel I'll drop the angle and scrub but as far actually working on the edge I always microbevel and finish edge trailing .

Did wife's kitchen knife the other day and set the bevel on the 320 Shapton. 20-30 or so edge trailing passes on a 1k glass gave me a great 1k edge . Finished with a 4k glass same way very light edge trailing strokes that's the best way I can get an edge .

People do it differently some scrub all through the grits some do a western stroke some edge trailing . On softer stones edge trailing is a must for me . Once my bevel is regroup though I don't have a need for anything but edge trailing my work is done the bevel is reset and reground, I'm not polishing the bevel only the edge so edge trailing works for me . You gotta find your method though . What works for me may not work for you ,it's all about trial and error and the way you feel most comfortable with . Anybody tells you your doing it wrong but if your pleased with the results keep at it whatever way works for YOU.
 
bucketstove ... I'll do my best to be more specific/descriptive of my method.

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Shapton Glass 120 & 220 - Scrubbing motion, establish new edge geometry and thin out behind the cutting edge/apex

Shapton Glass 500 - Scrubbing motion, Clean Up the scratch pattern and refine the edge

Shapton Glass 500 - Edge trailing motion, heel to tip

Shapton Glass 2000 - Edge trailing motion, heel to tip (do not like the edge I get here so I go to the following)

DMT Well Worn Coarse Diasharp - Edge leading, heel to tip - very light pressure

Spyderco Medium Bench Stone - Edge leading, heel to tip - very light pressure

Spyderco Fine Bench Stone - Edge leading, heel to tip - light pressure with slight increase of angle

Shapton Glass 16000 - "Cut" the stone like Harrelson Stanley shows to get rid of any burr, then a few alternating, edge trailing strokes with very light pressure

.
 
J Thomas said:
.
HeavyHanded ... Thank You for the links and for sharing some of your sharpening journey. I guess I've always gravitated toward the "how simple can I make something" way of process. With sharpening, there are so many variables ... I don't think I can just come up with one failsafe method. I'll keep at and learn something new and applicable each day, appreciate the help in that endeavor.

All the best.
Click to expand...


I've always been about the simple approach as well, or at least "uncomplicated". Something can have several steps but if very clear and orderly it still feels simple overall. And I've learned a ton on this forum too - happy to have had a positive influence on anybody.

The biggest improvement you can make IMHO is to reduce steps, mechanical movements etc that have no real purpose with a goal to improving how accurately you can maintain an edge angle. It all comes back to this.

I went through a period of years where I had wrist surgery on both hands with prolonged recovery, had to relearn a bunch of stuff. Also made me take a hard look at how sloppy my mechanics were (and still are in some regards, I have never stopped working on this!). If you can hit tight accuracy on your mechanics, all other trouble shooting and problem solving become easier overnight. Then you can sit back and focus on the effects of various abrasives, angle changes (intentional), scratch patterns, finish levels, challenging your held assumptions etc.

Is not easy for some, myself included. I had to really step outside myself and look at what my hands were actually doing. It sounds so simple but in reality is not a task the human body is designed to do with precision. Which isn't to say you can't get strong results with a fairly large margin, but it absolutely makes trouble shooting and figuring out unfamiliar or improvised methods a lot easier (which may help keep things simple). Of course, it should be rewarding, relaxing, informing etc, whatever else one wants from this aside from just a sharp edge and stress if it doesn't happen. But when you get bit by the bug, is hard not to keep trying to improve.


It's not the daily increase but daily decrease. Hack away at the unessential.

Bruce Lee
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Spartan00 said:
You gotta find your method though . What works for me may not work for you ,it's all about trial and error and the way you feel most comfortable with . Anybody tells you your doing it wrong but if your pleased with the results keep at it whatever way works for YOU.
Click to expand...

Amen!
 
J Thomas said:
bucketstove ... I'll do my best to be more specific/descriptive of my method.

.

Shapton Glass 120 & 220 - Scrubbing motion, establish new edge geometry and thin out behind the cutting edge/apex

Shapton Glass 500 - Scrubbing motion, Clean Up the scratch pattern and refine the edge

Shapton Glass 500 - Edge trailing motion, heel to tip

Shapton Glass 2000 - Edge trailing motion, heel to tip (do not like the edge I get here so I go to the following)

DMT Well Worn Coarse Diasharp - Edge leading, heel to tip - very light pressure

Spyderco Medium Bench Stone - Edge leading, heel to tip - very light pressure

Spyderco Fine Bench Stone - Edge leading, heel to tip - light pressure with slight increase of angle

Shapton Glass 16000 - "Cut" the stone like Harrelson Stanley shows to get rid of any burr, then a few alternating, edge trailing strokes with very light pressure

.
Click to expand...

That's a lot of steps personally I'd do this . Save your 120 and 220 for those edges that are chipped or need rebeveled 500 is a good stone to start on 90% of the time .Get the edge you like off the 500 and don't move up until your happy with the edge off that 500 no matter how tempting ! If you wouldn't pocket that edge and use it keep at it ! From 500 go to 2k shapton and stop the 2k is a very good edc edge , sharpness is not how high grit you have its how clean you have it !

If you wanted to go further I'd go 500 ,2k, and 16k the 2k to 16 is a jump but it's a refined toothy edge and a good one at that .

For most sharpenings the 2k to start then medium bench stone would be all you need ,fine if you wanted more polished . I use my ceramics as maintenance stones nothing more .
 
Spartan00 - Insightful feedback, I appreciate it greatly.

I use to start with the SG 500 on my knives, then word got out and all of a sudden I'm getting knives with no edge and no geometry - not able to go the belt sander route led to the acquiring of the 120 and 220.

I just need to put my head down and learn what I'm doing wrong with the 2000 - It's not the stone, it's me. Good advice on using the ceramics for maintenance. When I visit my In-Laws all I take are the Medium and Fine Spyderco benchstones, going on 6 months now with maintaining the edge I created at Christmas time .... those ceramics sure make maintenance easy.

All the best.
 
J Thomas said:
Spartan00 - Insightful feedback, I appreciate it greatly.

I use to start with the SG 500 on my knives, then word got out and all of a sudden I'm getting knives with no edge and no geometry - not able to go the belt sander route led to the acquiring of the 120 and 220.

I just need to put my head down and learn what I'm doing wrong with the 2000 - It's not the stone, it's me. Good advice on using the ceramics for maintenance. When I visit my In-Laws all I take are the Medium and Fine Spyderco benchstones, going on 6 months now with maintaining the edge I created at Christmas time .... those ceramics sure make maintenance easy.

All the best.
Click to expand...

Don't hesitate to pull out the sharpie on that bevel too. Also check your pressure . You might not realize how much pressure you put on a knife put take a knife and press on a bathroom scale and see just how light say half a pound of pressure is .
 
i think it's already been said

flush the slurry, keep the stone clear and clean
lighter pressure.
if these don't work, look to your previous stone grit to make certain you are ready to go upto a higher grit.

for me it's like learning forging, grinding or sharpening, it takes about 20 tries before you get it.
 
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