Am I wrong?

JK Knives

JK Knives

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I`ve always considered a "handmade" knife to be one where the maker actually makes the knife by profiling it out, grinding it, heat treating it, and putting handles on and finishing it. Yet I keep seeing more and more makers using CNC equipment to do their blades. Am I wrong in my thinking?
 
There is definitely a fine line. I see it as the CNC mill is a tool, just like a hammer, a grinder, or a file. The CNC is just so much more efficient-- just like a 2x72 grinder is much more efficient than a mill file. However, the maker still has to control the tool. I like what Fiddleback Forge did with their mid-tech lines using a totally hand made model to set up the tooling and then still finishing them "by hand" with some adjustments and assembly work. What they also did was be very upfront about what you were getting and explained the process calling it a "mid-tech".

I mean do you have to make your own steel or can you buy that. Why does profiling the blade with an angle grinder or porta-band saw following the pattern scribe line marked in red dykem make it more special than having the water jet or mill head follow the pattern line scribed in the software? At some point, I concede, that the product becomes production knife. I guess the real issue is defining how much work goes into each model and then asking questions like does the maker have to program the mill, operate the mill, build the fire for heat-treat, etc.
 
Under most circumstances I consider CNC milled knives to be short run production. They don't necessarily involve less skill than "traditional " forged or stock removal but they are by their nature able to be mass produced. The effort is in the R&D and CAD work though. So while they may not be "hand made", a unique milled knife could still certainly be "custom".

Edit: a "handmade" knife can also be mass produced. We frequently see this where makers churn out dozens of knives of the same pattern. In either case I like being able to name the person responsible for making a knife, as opposed to it being made as part of a run of 2000 by a contracted factory :)
 
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The ones that I question are totally finished blades, (fully ground and heat treated) then delivered to the maker to put handles on. Then called "handmade." Fiddleback is honest about it by calling them production knives, some others are not.
 
JK Knives said:
The ones that I question are totally finished blades, (fully ground and heat treated) then delivered to the maker to put handles on. Then called "handmade." Fiddleback is honest about it by calling them production knives, some others are not.
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I would not consider those to be handmade. Still possibly custom...

I think it's important that people specify what they did themselves and what was outsourced. Did they design a knife and have a CNC workshop produce the blank from their spec's? That's fine, just say so. The same goes for heat treatment etc.

(Sorry about the edits, I am half asleep )
 
I program a CNC daily for my job. I work at a granite fabrication shop. We install counter tops for homes and businesses.

My opinion, based on granite fabrication, is that a CNC very much takes away the personal touch of something that was 'hand made'. But, it also shoots the precision and production through the roof. What used to take our shop 2-3 days to fabricate, we can turn out in one day now. We actually had to hire more people to keep up with production.

With a CNC you lose all the little imperfections of something that was done by hand. When it comes to knives, when I hold a knife, I want a connection to something that was lost. A connection to the past, when a knife was the most important tool a man could own.
 
I just picked up a knife that is primarily made on a CNC. It is an amazing blade, exceptional steel and heat treat, and the fit and finish are impeccable. Part of my appreciation is the art that was achieved with a machine. The entier knife, including from developing the heat treat 'recipe', prototyping the original blade to developing the tooling and then machining and hand finishing the knives in small batches was accomplished by one person in a one person shop. I marvel at that because it is just an exceptional knife. He is a knife maker and a machinist, both, and among the best at a wide variety of knife making skill sets. He's perfected his knives because he knows the science behind every step.

I don't think the maker claims it is hand made, nor custom, but it is both in my mind because his hands are on every piece, at every step.
 
I programmed, set up, and ran CNC mills and lathes for years (Mazak), so I know what it involves. I was also a tool and die maker, using manual lathes and mills.
 
I would still consider something that was NC as handmade if it was by that one guy in the shop who ticked all the boxes. The mass-produced stuff involves robots, belts of parts going past a bunch of people who all do a small part of the build; technically by hand but without the same involvement in each and every knife. And that's for sure not to say that anyone building knives that way can't have pride in their work.

The other posters touched on the charm of a handmade knife and the humanity that creeps into them by way of tiny imperfections that personalize each individual blade. The problem being is that every customer isn't as in love with those imperfections. On my Spyderco's every thumb ramp is in perfect line. On my Winkler II, (not a full custom but way more hands on) the thumb ramp is just a tiny bit off. Not glaring but enough that for some it would have the melting down in the GBU here.

Everyone has to stay in business so I think it's a real balancing act to maintain your handmade fingerprint and not see too many returns or production rejects. For some that machine tool is what makes the difference.
 
JK Knives said:
The ones that I question are totally finished blades, (fully ground and heat treated) then delivered to the maker to put handles on. Then called "handmade." Fiddleback is honest about it by calling them production knives, some others are not.
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I think of those as small batch production or hand finished, but not handmade.
 
I get the HK knives pre-made by you of course, I call them "handmade" but if I didn't know you were hand making them I wouldn't, I would still say "Custom knife" though.

Seems like walking the line of marketing to me, like saying "made in the USA" becuse the parts were put together here or because one piece was.
 
A knifemaker who can do every step himself, whether all by hand or by available automation, is not going to make just one knife by automation. Too much setup for a single product. But making a single knife by hand at each step will teach that knifemaker a lot about everything from design to materials.

You don't learn about knifemaking by programming a machine, you have to know all that first. Or the process of learning will be long and expensive.
 
I too find it odd that some terms are just marketing for some folks. I took me a few years to understand the real difference - I am grateful for the knowledge learned here on BF before I continued collecting knives. I truly appreciate the fact that only one person is involved when buying.
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I think it goes beyond the labels: Handmade, Custom, Hand finished to how the knife came to be and what input can be had to make it mine and do I even want it.

For example one of my favorites is a mid-tech Fiddleback Runt seconded by a custom Runt, although in reality they are the same knife (Runt), save the steel and what was done in the shop versus outside and the price is adjusted accordingly.

Another favorite is your EDC 01 and Hikers Backup. I think of them similarly as you made them from start to finish, except the backup I got to influence a whole lot more. Both handmade, but one is custom for me.

My Sebenza, essentially a knife born out of tolerances and computer engineering is anyones guess. Does $$$ invested in machines to achieve perfection downgrade Sebenzas to production, like a entry level Spyderco, SOG, or Benchmade? IMHO, nope, while they are mostly machine made and human fitted, the level of detail is that of craftsmen, so I categorize like handmade/custom.

I guess as long as the process is described and different levels of hand/machine involvement are disclosed and priced accordingly, I'm ok with all variations. When they're not, I am usually not buying anyway.

YMMV
 
ndmiller said:
I guess as long as the process is described and different levels of hand/machine involvement are disclosed and priced accordingly, I'm ok with all variations. When they're not, I am usually not buying anyway.
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That's what I like about these hosted knifemaker and manufacturer forums. We get to know how much the knives are worth, not just how much they cost. :)
 
About 30 years ago I was a tool maker. Had to learn the trade as I went into the chain making business for a decade. Taught me to appreciate craftsmanship.
 
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