American vs European blades.

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jackknife

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Oct 2, 2004
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A recent post by ElCuchillo got me to thinking about something I have long noticed. After a lifetime of using pocket knives, it seems to me that the european made knives do cut a bit better in some cases than the American counterparts.

Today I examined alot of my old pocket knives and I compared some American Case, Buck, Schrade, Camillus, to some Eye-brand, Bertram, Bruckman, and Victorinox. As a rule the european made knives all had either thinner blades, or blades that showed a better flat grind right down to the edge of the blade. In addition, the American made knives had a spine that was full thickness to the point where the grind for the clip started. The European knives had a very distinct distal taper from the heel of the blade all the way to the point. My Bertram stockman had a blade that I was able to hold the knife in my right hand and with the thumb and forfinger of my left hand was able to flex the blade almost like a fillet knife.

I love my Case yellow CV sodbuster, but my Eye-Brand yellow sodbuster has a thinner blade that has more of a flat grind with a final edge that is noticably keener than my Case. The Klass Brown Mules are even more so.

I think in recent years form following function has taken a back seat to end of quarter proffit margin, with less care taken in the final touches of the product. The eye opener for me was when I looked and compared a two year old Case medim stockman to my friend Pauls old Case stockman from the early 60's. The older Case was in general a trimmer knife, with more rounded off contours, but the blades were more of a full flat grind all the way down to the edge. The newer Case was .017 thousandths thicker in back of the edge,according to my Starrett calipers. The Buck 301 stockman, and the Camillus and Schrade stockmans all had a full thickness blade spine till they started to taper to the clip, but the Bertram, Bruckman, and Victorinox tinker had tapered almost 40 % by the time it was halfway down the blade from the kick/heel of the blade.

When I cut into some thumb thick downed branches from a hardwood tree (maple) the German Hen and Rooster from the 50's and the Swiss army Knife cut all the way through the sticks with a bit less noticable effort than the American knives like the Buck and Camillus stockman, although the Schrade Old Timer 8OT was not far behind the German knives. My Case peanuts had blades that were .035 thousands thinner than the larger knives, and were thus thinner right in back of the cutting edge by virtue of the smaller size blades.

Has anyone else noticed this or am I ready for the basket weaving courses at the local rest home?:confused:
 
I have noticed thicker blades and less distal taper on US made knives. I blame it on a few factors:
1) We are much closer to our frontier heritage than the Europeans. We see thicker blades as more durable tools, which we desire more than "weaker", more refined tools.
2) We are Americans. We are supposed to do everything differently than the rest of the world ;) :D And we tend to substitute brute force for finesse :o
3) Most of America can't tell the difference between an axe, a crowbar, a screwdriver and a knife (if you don't believe me, look around the forums a little more). If you give an American a refined, thin-bladed knife, he'll break it.

Perhaps the ongoing urbanization of our country will cause us to gravitate to thinner blades that cut better, but I fear that instead, ignorance is leading to a fear of knives which could render them extinct before it happens.
 
You both make some very good points (I'm sorry to say for the most part).

The one area I have found lacking in some European blades that I've had was poorly heat treated steel though in other respects the knives were nice. (Fit and finish, scale material etc.)

Let's hope that we can get things back on track.
 
You know, it's funny., I myself have been guilty of thinking what Yablanowitz stated. I've at times been afraid to carry my SAKs because the blades are so thin that I'm a fraid that I'll break them. It never occurs to me that they have been made soft enough that they will bend rather then break. They have been made to take more abuse then other, harder steel blades. I guess it's the "American" in me. Lately, though, as I stated in my original post, the little SAK blew me away, and has made me question whether I will ever buy a stockman, peanut, or soddie again. I love those patterns, and I love the different handle materials, and I've always wanted that one knife that I can carry for ten, twenty years old and then hand over to my kid, well used, showing it's age, and telling stories, but nostalgia and memories aside, it is a cutting tool, and my SAK cuts better then the others, so why buy anything else? Just a wierd eye opener for me.
 
I know what you mean ElCuchillo, and to a degree I do agree with you. If it were a desision with no emotion or human thought in it, I would carry a vic soldier as my edc, and nothing else.

But,

Being human, and having likes and dislikes, I can't develope the love of sak's that I have for an old stag stockman from another era. It's like guns. Karen bought a Glock and we shot it for a while. It was a great gun just as accurite as our Smith and Wesson revolvers, more rounds, simple to clean, and lighter weight to boot. But over the course of a year and a half niether of us could "bond" with the gun. In spite of doing everything as good or as better than our old blue steel revolvers with the walnut grips, it just did not have a "feel". An it had all the appeal of a screwdriver. Maybe we're just too set in our ways, but the Glock was sold, and today we just have our revolvers.

I reached a point in life where I came to realize its not just about function. I want some asthetics, some beauty in my life to make things interesting. Like a framed picture on the wall thats a print of Rembrandts "The Night Watch" we have in the living room, or the Frederick Remington "Night On A Canadian Lake" on the other wall, art enriches our lives.

A beautifull knife is an art form, and if we need a knife in the coarse of the day, why not make it a nice looking one, and take a small moment to admire it before we put it back in our pocket? Life is short, enjoy the little things. Sure we would live a bit longer if we ate tofoo and steamed veggies, but I choose to enjoy that steak hot off the grill with a really cold beer just out of the ice. And afterward smoke my pipe for a long lasting desert with a small glass of brandy.

I admit I carry a sak tinker. Its in a nylon pouch in back of my right hip, with a small AAA Dorcy led light. The combo of sak and small light has been very usefull on more than one occasion, and I've used the tools to really fix things. But it would never take the place of that worn old barlow I found in a junk shop in Trinidad Colorado that I sometimes carry. Or my grandads old Hen and Rooster stockman. Thats the beauty of being an adult in a free country, we can carry more than one because we want to.

The old knives are like a link to the past, and the history behind them. And they have aged, just like the man carrying them. I like the soft grey patina of old carbon steel, and I like the feel of a handle material that is not a petro chemical, but maybe part of an animals horn, or the warm feel of smooth wood. Look at those wonderfull knives smilling-knife keeps comming up with, they were somebodys treasured possesion a hundred years ago. They had individual style. And they grew better with the passing of the years.

I think there is something in the nature of man, that he likes beauty in his tools, and only in recent times it has been swept under the rug of effientcy. Look at old arms and armor. Some of those salty hard corp warriors who thought nothing of bashing each other with a mace or ax, had armor with floral and other designs on it. The old Kentucy rifles that opened up the Cumberland gap had relief figuring on the maple stocks, with decorative brass inlays around the patch box.

I think there is a deeper reason people like traditional pocket knives, and shooting traditional old guns like muzzle loaders. Look at the growth of cowboy action shooting. There seems to be a need for sentinent intellegent beings to have a link to their history. An AR-15 is a accurite shooting gun, but will never have the appeal to some folks that a walnut stocked old Winchester carbine or Parker shotgun has. And the more times get like they have been going, the more people seem to want to look back.

I like and carry a sak. They are great knives, and I wish the American compaies like Case and Queen would look at them and take a lesson or two from them, like deliver the knife SHARP!.

But I will always love my traditionals.
 
I don't understand the overdone admiration for SAK's. I carry one to work every day, the Alox handled Pioneer Harvester. As a tool, it is good. I use the screwdriver, saw, awl, etc, constantly, but the cutting blade itself isn't that great. I don't really like spear points, and the soft steel dulls rapidly. It's fine for cleaning your fingernails, slitting cellophane packages, sharpening pencils, etc, but put it to heavy usage like whittling or opening thick dual layer cardboard boxes such as water heaters come in, and it dulls in minutes. Dull enough to no longer sharpen a pencil with or cut thick plastic banding material. Any of my CV bladed Cases or D2 bladed Queens will cut for days without resharpening, any more than light duty usage will dull the SAK rapidly. Much faster than even Cases "Tru Sharp" 420 HC, and many many times faster than Bucks 420HC.

Fit and finish on the SAK's is fine for a mass production knife. But with the plastic and aluminum construction and soft blade steels, to me, they'll never be more than a disposable form of tool that I can pitch in my pocket, beat the tar out of and throw away when finished with.
 
Phil in Alabama said:
I don't understand the overdone admiration for SAK's. I carry one to work every day, the Alox handled Pioneer Harvester. As a tool, it is good. I use the screwdriver, saw, awl, etc, constantly, but the cutting blade itself isn't that great. I don't really like spear points, and the soft steel dulls rapidly. It's fine for cleaning your fingernails, slitting cellophane packages, sharpening pencils, etc, but put it to heavy usage like whittling or opening thick dual layer cardboard boxes such as water heaters come in, and it dulls in minutes. Dull enough to no longer sharpen a pencil with or cut thick plastic banding material. Any of my CV bladed Cases or D2 bladed Queens will cut for days without resharpening, any more than light duty usage will dull the SAK rapidly. Much faster than even Cases "Tru Sharp" 420 HC, and many many times faster than Bucks 420HC.

Fit and finish on the SAK's is fine for a mass production knife. But with the plastic and aluminum construction and soft blade steels, to me, they'll never be more than a disposable form of tool that I can pitch in my pocket, beat the tar out of and throw away when finished with.
Click to expand...

Phil, I agree with everything you have said. I own several SAK's and have some with blade play and a few have lazy to no snap blades. But none hold and edge anywhere near as good as Case's Tru sharp. Don't even begin to compare them with D2 or anybody's carbon steel.
I like the tools that a SAK offers. But don't plan on any heavy cutting with one without having your sharpener nearby. Larry
 
Keep in mind that SAKs are not a new thing. They've been around long enough to be traditional in their own right. However, as Jackknife said, it's often a matter of bonding with something and enjoying a tool that is also a bit of art in itself.

Sure, I recently picked up an AR-15 in the M4gery format. Having been through the M16A1 to A2 transition, among others while in the Army and having shot a Colt A1 type in a little highpower competition it has a certain nostalgia to me. However, I also have a muzzleloader with brass inlays. It ain't a fancy one, but when I bought it the owner of my favorite shop told me it was from a fellow who recently passed away. He liked to get inexpensive front stuffers and fancy them a little and make them look a little more passed down looking. I may never shoot this piece as I'm not shooting traditional BP guns like I used to. (And I've never shot in-lines, or compound bows either.) However, even though I never met the man who dandified it a little, I appreciate what it might have meant to him. I appreciate some quirks on it that make it look like it was carried and used by some poor backwoods feller to make meat for years, but to whom his gun was more than just a tool.

I've had way more guns over the years that have been pretty wood and nicely blued steel than I've ever had synthetics. As sensible as a stainless steel and synthetic stocked rifle may be for all weather hunting, there is something about warm, dancing woodgrain in a stock that wraps itself around nicely blued steel that makes for many hours just handling that gun, rubbing the stock, mounting it on imaginary game or clays that always break into a cloud of perfectly centered dream dust.

I can also appreciate a hardwood stocked, working man's single shot break open gun. Somehow the same gun with a synthetic stock isn't the same. Maybe I just can see some farmer pulling out from behind the kitchen door when something is after the chickens.

I had a Glock for a while. I try to keep a duty auto on hand since there is always the possibility I may want or need to work a commissioned security spot. As Jackknife said, it is a fine, accurate, reliable firearm. As a tool it is first rate. But, just like Jackknife and Karen, I couldn't seem to bond with it. So, I traded it off.

The shotgun that may get me back out into the field and onto the clays as well is a lively little Spanish side by side in 20 gauge made as best as I can tell, in 1966. It's had the stock repaired, recheckered and refinished. I got it for under $200. And, it is THE gun that I've been looking for. Just picking it up makes you want to carry it. It handles like it has a life of its own. It won't win any beauty contests against upscale guns, but it has a dignity of its own that says it's a companion. I've had nicer shotguns, but none that really nestle into me like this recent find.

A robust, 12 gauge pump or auto with a synthetic stock and matte barrel would probably be the choice for a hardcore bang and bag 'em fellow. But me, it's all the other intangibles that make it worth doing in the first place. I can sit in my chair holding that little Spanish 20 gauge and I slip off thousands of miles away and maybe years back. Maybe I'm back on the farm or maybe I'm shooting in exotic places I've only been in stories and dreams. I'm in the Green Hills of Africa shooting birds in between big game forays, or perhaps on the Pampas where the birds darken the sky. Where ever I am, real or imagined, a basic black, synthetic stocked shotgun just doesn't have the heart and soul to take me there like that little Spanish box lock. I just feel a little more a gentleman with it nestled under my arm.

That relates to knives too. My old Swiss Champ has truly been a champ. I still have that SAK utility in my blazer at work all the time. However, when I take that smooth bone-handled Case mini-trapper out of my pocket to cut something it just sings to me. It has Tru-Sharp blades, yes. But, someone was spot on when they made them that day. They came very sharp, they've stayed sharp, and I've never been disappointed. However, it isn't the blades alone that have turned this into my genuine Every Day Carry knife, with the emphasis on Every Day. It is simply THE knife I reach for and put in my pocket. It's even replaced my Town Knife in my jeans.

I have that Canal Street I've talked about before that came with wonderfully sharp, D2 blades. But the rest of the knife doesn't measure up. I wish I could put those blades into one of my Queen trappers. Getting back to the Case. The fit and finish are great. The warmth to the eye and the hand of the smooth Chestnut bone is a pleasure to both. It also carries very well in my pocket. The walk and talk is crisp and just strong enough without being too much. I like crisp half stops. When I open either blade I get a special pleasure as the blade clicks neatly into and out of its half stop before snapping crisp an clean into either the open or closed position. When I go to cut something and it just parts like nothing that just is the cream on the berries.

Sure, all I did was take out my knife and cut something. Any good tool should be able to do that. But everything comes together in this traditional pattern with natural scales in such a way that a simple act has a profound pleasure and sense of doing for myself that only fellow reprobates will understand. Like the perfect draw on a fine, warm figured, briar pipe on a clean, fall day, or that soul stopping moment as you line up on a rising quail and it is so deeply moving and just so right that you wish you could be fixed there with that feeling forever. All of it is over in an instant, but it is such a sense of honest, untainted pleasure that simple as it is, it just makes you feel good deep inside. I think maybe that is what separates traditional knife lovers and users from the moderns.

I may have gotten a little gone on that, but it really is those intangibles, those silly underlying currents of emotion that make the difference between just using a tool and being part of the process.

Hey, Jackknife? Ya got some room at that basket weaving table for me? I may be ready to sign up myself!
 
That's my point. I've always loved that traditional "feel" of a Sodbuster, Stockman, or my favorite, the Peanut. They have a soul. They have life. It's like they all have their own personality. They bond with you and become one with you. In the Martial arts, we were taught that if you practiced enough with one of the weapons, like a Bo staff, or Nunchukus, it would become one with you, and even with your eyes closed, you'd be able to tell which was your Bo, or which wasn't. Same with knives. We handle them enough that they eventually become a part of us. The SAKs are rather generic. You can't get that same "feel" with them. They will never really become personal. I was just blown away by that little sak's performance, and concentrated making it my only carry knife. However, after a few days of doing so, I find myself missing my Peanut something awful. It is back in it's home in my left front pocket as we speak, a faithful companion along for a ride, and the SAK is on my computer table, ready to be called up for duty. I guess it's how it should be.
 
Amos Iron Wolf said:
The shotgun that may get me back out into the field and onto the clays as well is a lively little Spanish side by side in 20 gauge made as best as I can tell, in 1966. It's had the stock repaired, recheckered and refinished. I got it for under $200. And, it is THE gun that I've been looking for. Just picking it up makes you want to carry it. It handles like it has a life of its own. It won't win any beauty contests against upscale guns, but it has a dignity of its own that says it's a companion. I've had nicer shotguns, but none that really nestle into me like this recent find.
Click to expand...


Hey Amos- You're probably expriancing the joy of the gun built for the gauge feel. The old sweet 16's and 20's were made on a frame scaled down for the gauge instead of trying to make the one size fits all like modern factories do.

Those trim little 20's are a pleasure to use, aren't they?!:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
 
I agree and don't agree with people here.

I agree with all of the people staying true to their traditions and bonds to the past and history. This I feel is not only a good thing in itself, but actually a crucial thing if we're ever going to understand and appreciate our past, as a part of a nation/group of people or our personal.

Where I don't agree is where I see people putting european knife = SAK....
People, there are many, many traditional knives that are NOT SAKs out here in Europe. Just as an example: http://www.couteaux-courty.com/regional.html
And these are only traditional french knives. There'll be many more if you look in other countries.
And many of these knives have a veeeeery long history, good materials, beauty and soul to boot.
So, I think part of the truth about not preferring european knives lies in the fact that they are unknown territory!! I believe that if more knives were tried and the general knowledge increased, peoples minds would change.
At least it wouldn't be: european knife = SAK.

Just my 2c.

/ Karl
 
Karl, thanks for posting that. Interesting to see where these areas are physically.

FWIW, I love my Laguiole de L'Artisan. I actually use it as it was meant to be used: As a dinner knife. Might just be the world's nicest steak knife... :)

And you will find a lot of respect for things like Opinel here.

-- Sam
 
I live in Europe and have, off and on, since 1993. I think it's relevant to note that the VAST majority of knives I see carried/used here fall into just two camps: Swiss Army Knives, and beefy, one-blade folders. I can never remember seeing a European pull out anything else to cut something with; never an Opinel, never a Laguiole, and certainly never a stockman or trapper or peanut or congress or any other "traditional-style" slipjoint -- European made or otherwise.

Also, I naturally hit any knife store I see ..... and I can tell you that the stock in every B&M knife store I've been in in Europe is dominated by big single-blade locking folders from the likes of Spyderdo, Boker, Gerber, and so forth (with the requisite off-brand crap from China mixed in).

Now I understand the original poster was remarking on the difference between U.S. and European-made slipjoints. I just wanted to point out that I don't see it as being a direct result of the preferences of the U.S. vs. European knife-buying public.
 
I will say that I saw some beautiful knives in the knife shops of Paris a few years back. Wonderful stuff from a variety of European (and U.S. based) makers.
 
Along the line of the original question about blade thickness and grind of European vs. American folders... I can't speak intelligeably about European folders, as I don't own any. However, in regard to thickness and grind, I noticed the other day that I USE small, flat-ground, thin, carbon steel (1095) blades and I STORE or COLLECT large, thick, hollow-ground, large SS, CV, blades. I don't mean to say that this is a conscious strategy, I'm just noticeing that this is the way it turns out. The thin, flat-ground blades get used and the heavy, hollow ground blades live in cigar boxes.

I don't have any SAKs, so I'll bow out of that debate, but I can say that the knife I reach for first, or drop into my coat pocket most often is a cheap little Schrade 12OT.

I do use others - but not as often.

Now that I know this, will my purchaseing habits change? NO, probably not. I'll continue to "collect" knives that I have no intention of ever useing in the field & I'll try to keep a few 12OT spare around...
 
jackknife said:
Hey Amos- You're probably expriancing the joy of the gun built for the gauge feel. The old sweet 16's and 20's were made on a frame scaled down for the gauge instead of trying to make the one size fits all like modern factories do.

Those trim little 20's are a pleasure to use, aren't they?!:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
Click to expand...

Yup! And it kind of fits with this thread in that European doubles have always been built lighter and more livelier than comparable American ones. Americans just always seem to like em a little heavier and "sturdy." Kind of like blade comparisons. Gauge specific frames are something we seem to missing here these days.

A 16 gauge in a true 16 gauge frame is a wonderful gun for 90% of shotgunning needs. (Modern load selection not withstanding.) I think it was Remington that introduced a new 870 in 16 gauge, but on a 12 gauge frame. Instead of a great, new production 16 you got a heavy shotgun that completely handicapped the gauge.

In discussions about some of the Chinese made knives I've commented that while some of them were made pretty good and seemed to have good 440C steel blades, they are just too thick and heavy in the pocket. They even make your average, current Case trapper seem light by comparison.

I think it may well be a cultural thing these days. We like things beefy and robust. Extreme! Bigger is better! On here we recognize what great blades Moras and Opinels are. Your average American looks at a Mora and thinks there's no way they would consider going afield with that cheap, flimsy thing. Yet Mora's have been going afield in Europe with hunters, fishermen, and others for ages. Our fathers, grandfathers and beyond understood trim, useful knives. I imagine because they used them daily and often for hands on living.
 
It is hard to bond with red handled saks....
BUT.........
The same doesn't completely apply to their Alox models. My Wenger Standard Issue? I LOVE the looks and feel of it. It's an elegant looking and feeling knife. Like Jackknife said in another post, it's strong springs and robust blades give it a "Traditional" feel to it. It is, after all, pretty much a modern version of the old camp/scout knives. Granted, no carbon steel, but it has the best awl I've seen on any camp/scout knife, and the blades close like bear traps. The SI is, in my very humble opinion, a definite work of art, aesthetically pleasing, and absolutely worth an admiring glance everytime I pull it out to use. A workhorse Gentleman's knife.
 
ParaGlock said:
Karl, thanks for posting that. Interesting to see where these areas are physically.

FWIW, I love my Laguiole de L'Artisan. I actually use it as it was meant to be used: As a dinner knife. Might just be the world's nicest steak knife... :)

And you will find a lot of respect for things like Opinel here.

-- Sam
Click to expand...

Thanks Sam!
Yes, I've seen many a time that there's a great respect for the Opinel here. Something I share too.
I just thought it got a bit too much like europen knife = SAK for my taste, that's all.

mnblade:
Sadly enough, your experience with knives you see used in Europe is the same as mine, although yours seem to be a bit "worse". I do see people using other knives than SAKs and one-bladed locking folders. I do see people using Opinels, Laguioles and Löwenmesser, and also the occasional LeThiers. But mainly it's SAKs (could have something to do with the fact that I'm living in Switzerland?:) ). And the knife-shops I go to also have some other knives than the SAKs and the one-bladed locking folders, but admittedly they are not many.
I guess the traditional knives are generally more honored in America than here in Europe, and kudos to America for that!!

Regarding the original post:
Yes, it was about the "difference between american and european blades", but it quickly turned into a "difference between american blades and SAKs".
I just wanted the thread to get back to what I thought is its original idea. :)

/ Karl
 
Karl5 said:
I do see people using Opinels, Laguioles and Löwenmesser, and also the occasional LeThiers. But mainly it's SAKs (could have something to do with the fact that I'm living in Switzerland?
Click to expand...

I'm sure that has something to do with it. I live in Prague and most of my travels have been limited to within this country, Austria, Germany and Italy. Of the knives I see in use, 85% are SAKs. Of the folding knives I see for sale in B&M knife shops, 75+% are big single-blade locking folders from the likes of Spyderdo, Boker, Gerber, CRKT, Colt, Smith&Wesson, Cold Steel and so forth, and there's always the ubiquitous display from Victorinox.

One thing I forgot to mention in my earlier post: I DO see Opinels for sale in many climbing/hiking shops. It's just that I can't ever remember seeing anyone here pull one out to cut something with.
 
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