An answer to locking knifes being mislabled as Gravity Knives?

S

Sonny

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Please Note:
To clarify, this is a discussion about ENGINEERING MECHANICAL SOLUTIONS. :thumbup:


Ok...I was thinking about a worst case scenario...a twilight zone case where Cyrus Vance Junior actually gets worse...totalitarian police state worse...and had his corrupt and illegal agenda spread and gain even more traction...and eventually become LAW...

What kind of engineering change would be needed to answer this goon's misinterpretation of knife laws and mislabeling of manual folding locking knives that can be flicked open with one hand or "spydie-dropped."

Any ideas besides having an ultra-tight pivot, or having a non-locking folder? (Even though knife laws in nyc clearly allow for locking folders under 4 inches regardless of how fast they can be flicked open.)

My idea is to have all knives include a manual slide safety...or better yet a "hidden" grip safety release (like in 1911's) that must be activated (ie. by holding the knife's handle) before allowing the knife to be opened via thumbstud/thumbdisc/spydiehole/flipper/waved.

This would make the infamous "spydie-drop" impossible (which can defeat the tightest pivots) and therefore excuse the knife from being incorrectly labeled as a gravity knife. The "spydie-drop" won't work b/c the knife MUST be held by the handle to release the manual grip safety...a very deliberate and separate action that must be engaged first...THEN one must complete a SECOND deliberate action to open the knife, via actuating the thumbstud/thumbdisc/spydiehole/flipper/wave.

Those two inherent and separate actions would make it ineligible as a gravity knife as well because the safety slide or grip safety alone BY ITSELF doesn't allow the knife to be dropped open...you still need to manually perform a second and separate action to actuate the knife open via thumbstud/thumbdisc/spydiehole/flipper/wave...unlike a true gravity knife where a SINGLE action of activating the button lock allows the blade to freely swing open or slide out.

A tight pivot + strong ball detent + grip safety or manual slide safety IMHO will make it impossible for the knife's blade to be flicked open (even spydie dropped..which can allow even the tightest pivots to be flicked open) and be mislabeled as a gravity knife.

Critiques and other engineering ideas are very welcome! :thumbup:
 
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Interesting ideas which I have pondered myself more than once. There are some button release folders that if made to be very tight, require two hands to open after you press the release button. The fact that the blade is held closed by a button, is by itself not outside the defintion of a gravity knife ( that is how the real ones work), and I am not sure there is a requirement for two movements, in that, if you press a button but can still flick open the knife, then it would be a gravity knife. If the blade is so tight that you can not flick it open, then you should be fine. Good ideas for sure. I also think that if a knife was made to be non flickable and marketed that way, it would help in the defense against a gravity knife charge if you were wrongly charged.
 
Well thought out and interesting ideas.

The problem is you are dealing with a prosecutor who does not care about reality or logic. He cares about publicity, power, and money.
The man considers box cutters purposely designed offensive weapons and gravity knives!
You could probably make a knife that had a lock that required a key to open it and he would find a reason to impound it.

"Never try to teach a pig to sing, it will frustrate you and it annoys the pig."
 
tom19176 said:
Interesting ideas which I have pondered myself more than once. There are some button release folders that if made to be very tight, require two hands to open after you press the release button. The fact that the blade is held closed by a button, is by itself not outside the defintion of a gravity knife ( that is how the real ones work), and I am not sure there is a requirement for two movements, in that, if you press a button but can still flick open the knife, then it would be a gravity knife. If the blade is so tight that you can not flick it open, then you should be fine. Good ideas for sure. I also think that if a knife was made to be non flickable and marketed that way, it would help in the defense against a gravity knife charge if you were wrongly charged.
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Problem is, the pivots on folders tend to loosen over time and not all of them can be retightened. My favorite EDC (Cold Steel "Voyager"), for example, has push-pin-pivots. These cannot be retightened. On the old Gerber FS II that I carried decades ago, you couldn't even reach the pivot because it was completely surrounded by the brass handle. Buck 110s and 112s also have this feature. Besides, even if the folder's mechanism was found to be technically legal in NYC, Vance and his ADAs could turn around and file "dangerous knife" charges against the poor sap who had the misfortune to be arrested in the first place.
 
Here's another firearms inspired idea:

To prevent the pivot from loosening of the re-engineered tight pivot+strong detent+manual grip safety knife...

How about each knife's pivot screws be "staked" after the factory tightening of the pivot via a precise use of a torque meter to prevent the knife from being staked with a loose pivot. (Just like how the AR15's carrier gas keys are staked to prevent the screws from loosening.)

As for push pin/riveted pivots, I suggest having them made with precision extra high strength pins that can be set at a proper level to make a tight pivot the first time at the factory.

Both of these methods would "fix" the pivot tightness at the factory....So this would mean a "hand-flicking" machine would be needed to standardize things and set the pivot's tightness beyond what even the strongest human can flick out a knife after disengaging the manual safety...as a "proof" test.

OR, one could also engineer a new type of pivot that can be "locked" at a certain pivot tightness and re-adjusted and re-locked as needed...ie. a one-way ratcheting screw type pivot with pin-hole access to the ratchet mechanism that can be unlocked and untightened via inserting a pin-tool...because we would all rather field-strip the knife ourselves instead of sending it off to the factory just for a minor cleaning/oiling lol.

Of course I definetly realize that going to this level of precision and care might lend itself to the semi-custom/custom area and thus increase prices...but disregarding the price for now, I just want to focus on the engineering challenges.

Once again, any critiques, corrections, and other engineering ideas are very welcome!
 
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How about not electing people without any common sense? Might that not be the best, least expensive solution?
 
Yes, but to clarify, this is a discussion about engineering mechanical solutions...
 
Sonny said:
Yes, but to clarify, this is a discussion about engineering mechanical solutions...
Click to expand...
The only way to be really safe in jurisdictions that ban "gravity knives" would be to reverse-engineer assisted opening folders so that the spring actually "fights" you a bit as you try to thumb open the blade (spring tension the opposite direction). If this was the case, the blade could not be flipped open with "centrifugal force" (per NYC interpretations). The blade could still be opened in one-handed fashion by constant pressure on the thumb stud combined with a continuous movement of the thumb against the stud until the blade locks open. The Cold Steel "Pocket Bushmaster" opens this way. That thing is impossible to flip open. BTW, AR-15/M-16 gas key stakes can fail. Happened to me once. The rifle began to experience stoppages as a result. This is why I prefer bolt-action rifles and pump-action scatterguns. Simple, rugged, reliable and a whole lot less expensive, given my rather meager "toy budget"! :D
 
Take a look at the internals of a traditional out the front utility knife. There is a spring loaded "tooth" attached to the thumb stud. There is a matching row of teeth on the frame. The user controls the length of the exposed cutting edge by depressing the stud, thus disengaging the tooth, and sliding it forward until they have the desired amount of edge exposed. When pressure is taken off the thumb stud, the "tooth" reengages the teeth on the frame and locks it into place.

030874671283347.jpg


Now take that mechanism and turn it from a straight line with the blade riding on a track into a circle with the blade riding on a pivot.

There is a toothed or holed disc sitting against the blade inside, or as part of, the handle. A spring loaded pin is attached to the base of the blade and protrudes through a cutout or relief in the handle and is attached to a thumb stud. The stud needs to be held down while the blade is being swung in or out. If it is disengaged, the pin engages the disk and locks the blade. The disk can be set so that the blade can lock in regular increments of 15 or 30 degrees.

It can't be "flicked" open since the moment the user takes pressure off the stud, the blade will stop.

IMHO For knives under 2", the snapoff utility knife mechanism can be copied with minimal modification. Over 2", the travel required to deploy the blade may become cumbersome.
11iPP8f6EiL._SL500_AA300_.jpg


FYI; Buck already has a lock that must be disengaged prior to opening the blade on their Transport and Redpoint knives. No idea if they're NYC legal.
 
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The problem isn't knives and knife owners but rather corrupt politicians like the DA in NYC. Forget the notion of knife safeties - we need to attack the notion of tyrants in office.
 
The only problem to be solved is people.

There is nothing wrong with any knife. Turns out, if you stick one in someone, they bleed.

All the rest is B.S. hype, just like folding stocks, bayonet mounts, full auto vs semi-auto, single action vs double. It's all a load of crap.

People's lives are too simple and easy now, they have no perspective.

What we need is something to cause people to buck up and get their heads out of their asses.

Walking around all day thinking "Life is good, they will protect us." is as bad as always walking around thinking "They are coming to get me." People need to return to the middle at some point.
 
Getting back on topic; There has been hold closed locks, drag mechanisms, a closing bias, and intermediate stops proposed as solution to a "gravity knife" classification without giving up the utility of one handed opening. All are feasible from an engineering perspective, but I'm going to argue against the closing bias for the reasons of safety. If the blade thumb slips, and there is another finger in the closing path of the blade, the user could end up with a deep cut.

Anybody else want to chip in with some new ideas or refinements?
 
Now just a quick question.. in this sort of world, where the ruler and judge didn't care about logic, sense, or the truth, wouldn't that make it where no matter what, your kind of screwed? In this sort of almost 1984 like situation, wouldn't people rise up and fight back, and if it's that bad, owning a knife would probably get you arrested, not caring about what kind, so wouldn't it make sense to simply carry the most dangerous knife possible if you needed too, knowing that no matter what, if you get caught your pretty much done for? Think of it in anarchist-cookbook type terms, or those files from BBS's in the 80s and 90s would greatly help too, I don't think I'm allowed to link to any of them, but check them out for ideas. EDIT: sorry for the sorta-kinda necropost. Just wanted to have my say!
 
Sonny said:
Yes, but to clarify, this is a discussion about engineering mechanical solutions...
Click to expand...

A voting machine. There's the mechanical solution.

Don't get me wrong. I like and respect the idea of engineering a 'D.A.-proof' knife (and I ain't talkin' about Double Action). But, no matter what new 'perfect solution' the engineers and designers come up with, there'll always be another corrupt politician to pervert and demonize it. The only way the anti-knife crowd will ever accept it is to 'engineer' the blade out of the knife.
 
I like the idea of a saftey, like the one on the SOG Twitch II, for example, that must be disengaged before the knife will open.
 
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