An ethical dilemma for makers

C

Corduroy

Joined
Apr 15, 1999
Messages
1,442
I have an ethical problem that has been nagging me for over a year now concerning the use of others' knife designs. I'd appreciate feedback from other makers on it. I apologize if it is long.

I had a small shop for a year and taught myself stock removal knifemaking. It was an enjoyable way to spend time off from college and I learned a lot about motivating myself to work independently, and in the process made a couple of dozen knives.

Now, I had a customer who had given me several good jobs and helped me get started up with both encouragement and business. I consider him a good friend and am much in his debt. One day he came to me and said that what he really would like was a folder just like his production Gerber Applegate/Fairbairn folder, but done "all nice" in ATS-34 with a titanium and micarta handle. I pointed out that custom Applegates already existed from the designer who originally planned the knife with Col. Applegate (I have since forgotten who this is). He said, yes, but they were all gone by now and did not have the bolsters and other features he desired.

I told my friend that I would draw up some designs "like the Applegate" and run them by him. We exchanged several rounds of drawings and comments, but kept coming back to what was basically an Applegate folder. He even gave me his production version for reference.

Well, after much hemming and hawing, I incorporated as many changes as I could and made the knife. It was certainly different, but in profile and operation was fundamentally a copy of the Applegate folder. He paid me very well for it and I told him that, if anyone asked, he was to acknowledge it as taken from the Applegate design and say that I was not willing to make any more.

I still wonder if what I did was wrong. I was very proud of the work, and consider it the nicest folder I made before I returned to school and closed up my shop (I hope not for good), but I wish that it could have been a truly original design. Yes, none of us could make a single knife without borrowing from the designs of others, but this was clearly more than that.

I think this forum may give me the opportunity to be judged by my elders in this craft, and perhaps to do some penance. You out there who design and build knives for a hobby or for a living, what do you think of my actions? I look forward to your response, whatever it may be.

-Corduroy
 
I am not a maker, but maybe I can help lend a perspective...I think what you did was both wrong and right for several reasons. Let's start with the negative part:
My only consideration that you did something wrong is that you seem to have made a knife that you did not really want to make. I know it's tough to say "no" to a friend, but you seem to have been against the idea from the get-go, so if anything, you may have let yourself down a bit for not sticking by what you thought was the right thing to do.
That said, I do not feel that you have any reason to think you did anything wrong or unethical. As you stated, the design was somewhat different, and you added some things not in the original design. Let me help illustrate the point with my own experience. I am having a custom blade made which is basically a fixed blade version of Bob Lum's Chinese utility folder. I initially felt bad having one maker copy another's design, but once we looked at it, I decided it was silly for several reasons...first, the original is a folder and this is fixed. Second, tha handle is somewhat different, and the blade is a little broader. Third, the maker is inputting a little of his own style into the knife. While the basic design is of the same cloth as Bob Lum's, the knife is not a mere copy, but rather a refinemtn of the original design. I think it makes a big difference.
I think you should be proud of your work, but in the future, make the knives YOU want to make, not what somebody else wants that you don't agree with. I think you have a knife to be pround of, and I don't think it sounds like you made a knock0ff in the least.
Steve
 
Well, the thing is we're all human. I know that some of my knives have been inspired by other designs, & I know that some of my designs will influence others. We feel bad when taking ideas from others, & dont like it much when it is done to us, but the fact is it happens. I, like you said, try to change things to a certain degree & add a personal touch. I like to think that every time a knife is replicated (sounds better than copied) it is made a little better to some degree. I know that when I go to shows, I hear remarks from other makers on some of my ideas, & you know that something very similar might very well show itself at the next gathering; but what can you say. "Yea it's nice, but dont you do it, I did it first". The odd borrowed idea happens, but to take to another makers style & blatantly follow or copy it is something else, & I think that is wrong. I beleive that most of my designs are unique to me & reflect a certain style, & I try to keep it that way; but if someone likes a design enough to make something very similar, then I must take that as a compliment....Take care.


------------------
 
I don´t think it´s wrong to use another knifemakers design. As long as you don´t say that this is your own design. Think of all the makers who make Loveless repro´s. Is that wrong? not in my book. Non of us invented the knife. Alot of us make some designs that is seldom seen. Very few make designs never seen. We have all started making knives at a stage were we needed all the inspiration we could get our hands on. If a knifemaker would choose to make a knife inspired by some of my designs ... Great that would mean I designed something thats good. And unless you have the knife in hand you couldnt make an exact repro anyway. There is more to a design than just the design. If you don´t have all the thoughts of the originater you would probaly end up with a knife of your own.
In short... be inspired and put your own style in it aswell, then you wont hurt anybody.

------------------
Jens Anso, ansoknive@usa.net
(check out my homepage)
http://home6.inet.tele.dk/ansoe/ansoknives
 
This is a very interesting topic. I find more soul searching amoung a bunch of knife makers about copying than in almost any other field of manufacture. I'm sure Chevy never offered to acknowledge Chrysler when they put the driver's side sliding door on their vans. Black Jack Knives had a whole line of knives that were very easily identified as Randall knock offs. Cold Steel still has a Randall #1 knock off, even the model number is R1 in Cold Steel's catalog. They call it a classic design used in all wars since WWII. They never mention Randall (and Randall copied Scagel). And why? Because knife makers generally don't capture and safeguard their intellectual properties! Design patents are very hard to get issued. Unless you have some other patentable feature (lock, handle attachment, etc.) you have no "legal" ability to prohibit someone from copying your designs. As bad as some makers complain about copying, there is little to no way to prevent it without a legal patent. Designs, even novel design, with no other salient features, are just not patentable. No patent, no protection.

This brings us to the moral aspect. We all have our own degrees of integrity and morality. This is what keeps some from making something that looks like someone else's work. You can be legally right and morally wrong. But the courts rarely judge us on our morals--that remains for the last judgement. Our morality and integrity is something we have to develop and live with--it is what we are known for in this life. When one maker complains that someone is making a knock off of his knives, it really means he finds the offender to have less integrity than himself/herself. If it were a legal issue, they could be taken to court, but you don't hear of that happening very much because the offended rarely win.

My own integrity would require that, if I wanted a knife very much like a particular maker's work, but not exactly, I would go to that maker and ask for them to make it for me. If they decline, I would feel free to take it to another maker to have the alterations included. I would not ask someone to put another maker's trademark or stamp on it because this would probably violate trademark laws.

I am not advocating copying, but I am advocating the acknowledgement of another's non-patented designs in your work. It would have been more appropriate for Black Jack and Cold Steel to have stated they were cheaper copies of the great Randall designs.
 
IF you look in the history books of knives were all copy cats in one way or another.
There are a few newer more updated versions of designs from years ago.

Every time frame in history back to the cave man has had mans first tool. We just keep updating the design of a blade to be what we think it should be in our own minds eye.

When looking at books and the fine magazines on the market today how can you not be inspired? Even if its sub thought..

If a client wants a repro of a knife its your call if you want to copy it or not.

It sounds like you really wanted to say NO.

The next time SAY NO if it bothers you ...

How many modern bowies look alike? Quite a few..
How many tac folders look alike LOTS

As for your punishment your the only one who can make this call.


------------------
Web Site At www.infinet.com/~browzer/bldesmth.html
Take a look!!!




 
Does anyone remember who made the original Applegate folder prototypes and customs? I think the best thing for me to do is to contact him (actually, I think it may have been a team of two) and explain the situation. If he/they don't feel that I was taking food out of their mouths, I guess I won't stress over it. If he/they do, well, maybe we can work out a "royalty." It would be nice to get this off my chest; as folks have said, the problem wasn't copying the knife so much as doing something that I had qualms about. The knife's owner is a good friend, though, and if he ever reads this I hope he realizes that the decision was MINE and this shouldn't degrade his enjoyment of the knife any.

Thanks to those who have responded.

-Corduroy
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top