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An opinion piece:cutting vs thrusting
- Thread starter clearblue
- Start date
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- May 18, 1999
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- 15,395
Intewesting, vewy intewesting.
Interesting that he also doesn't touch on the subject of the amount of bloos that you're going to confront in an edged weapon fight whether it be by swords or by knives.
There Will Be Copious Amounts of Blood! Depending upon where you are the floor could become very slippery to say the least.
Interesting that he also doesn't touch on the subject of the amount of bloos that you're going to confront in an edged weapon fight whether it be by swords or by knives.
There Will Be Copious Amounts of Blood! Depending upon where you are the floor could become very slippery to say the least.
I thought it interesting. Correct me if I'm wrong; but if you cut someone, are you now open for the thrust?
At any rate, the Pine Tree's I cut would like me to switch to the thrust, but of course, I cannot if I expect to gather enough firewood for winter.
munk
At any rate, the Pine Tree's I cut would like me to switch to the thrust, but of course, I cannot if I expect to gather enough firewood for winter.
munk
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2004
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- 3,178
For beer cans, I don't believe that the cut can be beaten.
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2004
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I did mention that I had a 1 lb. cheeseburger for dinner tonight already, didn't I?
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2003
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Well, there are two kinds of fighting he's talking about: battlefield combat and duelling. (one on one)
They have different natures. That's all there is to it really. Do what ya gotta do to stay alive.
They have different natures. That's all there is to it really. Do what ya gotta do to stay alive.
I could not get to the web link, since my browser crashed, but...
One explanation of the success of the gladius in Roman hands was that they learned about the effectiveness of the thrust.
To paraphrase, the thrust kills while the slash/chop wounds.
Obviously, both work to injure an opponent, and both are useful in fighting.
The katana was designed to slash, and the rapier to thrust. Both swords can do both, but...
Firearms rule....check out history.
One explanation of the success of the gladius in Roman hands was that they learned about the effectiveness of the thrust.
To paraphrase, the thrust kills while the slash/chop wounds.
Obviously, both work to injure an opponent, and both are useful in fighting.
The katana was designed to slash, and the rapier to thrust. Both swords can do both, but...
Firearms rule....check out history.
- Joined
- Aug 17, 2003
- Messages
- 3,409
wuz just reading an old novel (or was it in a movie?) about a duellist, one guy says (paraphrased)
hello jim, heard you was dead.
tother says:
hell, no, he stabbed me through the lungs, made me mad so's i cut out his heart. took me a good few months to recover tho.
think jim's last name was bowie or summthin.
p.s. - gladius above looks like an early mainz pattern blade with a later pattern hilt. scabbard is a bit plain, most were metal edged with fancy brass work,
see mainz pattern
i've got a fulham pattern bladed one myself for things that go bump in the nite. pompeii pattern (straight double edged diamond x-section, short triangular point) was late empire pattern, easier to make & more effective against armoured barbarians.
all three together mainz (top) fulham (mid) pompeii (lower)
one roman military historian said they were taught to thrust three inches into the solar plexus where possible which would put them down, soldiers following front line would dispatch the live leftovers. hobnail boots were used to keep footing on a carpet of bodies, guts, and blood, and to stomp wounded to ensure they didn't git up again. armpit of the guy to your right was always good target too, gets you brownie points with the others in your rank. barbs always raised their arms to swing their swords while concentrating on the glorious duel with the individual guy ahead. romans were a moving meat grinder team effort who didn't care about individual duels or honorable swordplay. bowl 'em over & let the back line deal with the leftovers
hello jim, heard you was dead.
tother says:
hell, no, he stabbed me through the lungs, made me mad so's i cut out his heart. took me a good few months to recover tho.
think jim's last name was bowie or summthin.
p.s. - gladius above looks like an early mainz pattern blade with a later pattern hilt. scabbard is a bit plain, most were metal edged with fancy brass work,
see mainz pattern
i've got a fulham pattern bladed one myself for things that go bump in the nite. pompeii pattern (straight double edged diamond x-section, short triangular point) was late empire pattern, easier to make & more effective against armoured barbarians.
all three together mainz (top) fulham (mid) pompeii (lower)
one roman military historian said they were taught to thrust three inches into the solar plexus where possible which would put them down, soldiers following front line would dispatch the live leftovers. hobnail boots were used to keep footing on a carpet of bodies, guts, and blood, and to stomp wounded to ensure they didn't git up again. armpit of the guy to your right was always good target too, gets you brownie points with the others in your rank. barbs always raised their arms to swing their swords while concentrating on the glorious duel with the individual guy ahead. romans were a moving meat grinder team effort who didn't care about individual duels or honorable swordplay. bowl 'em over & let the back line deal with the leftovers
- Joined
- Mar 8, 1999
- Messages
- 8,911
By the way - can anyone give a link to places that make such gladius that truely are battleready in the same sense as the HI's?
Windlass/Atlantic Cutlery/Museum Replicas Inc. might actually make one now and then, their Afghan knives ( I bought one, and Yvsa sent me another ) I've actually seen were both worth the money. But I have the feeling that is a crapshoot.
I haven't been on Swordforums for ages. Are the old/new Del Tin's solid enough? Gladius or Cinquedia would do. I have a bastard sword by them that I like but have never sharpened or tested - the 2143 ( I may be a few numbers off plus or minus ) with the flower on the raised center of the pommel.
Windlass/Atlantic Cutlery/Museum Replicas Inc. might actually make one now and then, their Afghan knives ( I bought one, and Yvsa sent me another ) I've actually seen were both worth the money. But I have the feeling that is a crapshoot.
I haven't been on Swordforums for ages. Are the old/new Del Tin's solid enough? Gladius or Cinquedia would do. I have a bastard sword by them that I like but have never sharpened or tested - the 2143 ( I may be a few numbers off plus or minus ) with the flower on the raised center of the pommel.
- Joined
- Aug 17, 2003
- Messages
- 3,409
haven't seen them in person, but
albion sell blades, roll your own hilts (USA) might do whole rig.
i've used jelling dragon in the UK for custom viking stuff, they also do roman gladii, whole rig with scabbard/belt
jelling dragon
(note: their 'battle ready section means they are dull with rounded points for full contact sca type re-enactments & blade to blade contact, the display/museum quality are 'users' which can be sharpened, but are not suitable for re-enactment's hard useage)
google search on 'gladius mainz' also brings up a lot of neat stuff, depeeka do some as well, they're getting better at making more authentic stuff since some of the UK re-enacters had a serious set-down with them. steel is not as good as custom makers, but probably more authentic as actual roman steel was not as good as our modern stuff - didn't stop them from winning tho. like most armies, the issue weapon was crap, they spent their earnings on better blades, scabbards & decorations. ultimate was a pattern welded blade with hardened edges. not many people making them nowadays, but have seen some makers of viking pattern welded swords who might make a gladius or two. depeeka make a mainz in damascus steel (not sure of cost) their cat. no. [size=-1]AH-4209-D[/size] but have heard varying comments on indian damascus not being properly heat treated & tempered.
albion sell blades, roll your own hilts (USA) might do whole rig.
i've used jelling dragon in the UK for custom viking stuff, they also do roman gladii, whole rig with scabbard/belt
jelling dragon
(note: their 'battle ready section means they are dull with rounded points for full contact sca type re-enactments & blade to blade contact, the display/museum quality are 'users' which can be sharpened, but are not suitable for re-enactment's hard useage)
google search on 'gladius mainz' also brings up a lot of neat stuff, depeeka do some as well, they're getting better at making more authentic stuff since some of the UK re-enacters had a serious set-down with them. steel is not as good as custom makers, but probably more authentic as actual roman steel was not as good as our modern stuff - didn't stop them from winning tho. like most armies, the issue weapon was crap, they spent their earnings on better blades, scabbards & decorations. ultimate was a pattern welded blade with hardened edges. not many people making them nowadays, but have seen some makers of viking pattern welded swords who might make a gladius or two. depeeka make a mainz in damascus steel (not sure of cost) their cat. no. [size=-1]AH-4209-D[/size] but have heard varying comments on indian damascus not being properly heat treated & tempered.
I have an Al Massey leafblade that looks like a Gladius leafblade, but with a LOTR sting guard. The pommel is threaded on. I really like the sword, but the point is on the thin side. It is not quite as chunky as an Albion gladius, since the blade is just about 2" wide at the guard.
Massey is likely to be willing to alter his blades to suit your requirements.
Kris Cutlery has a Pompeii pattern gladius that is less expensive than a custom blade, and much less than the Albions. The Albion swords look beautiful, but are expensive.
I don't know if the Kris Cutlery is as tough as an AK khuk, but I do like the Wakizashi I got from them. I wouldn't try to chop down wood with it. Kris Cutlery says on their web site that they won't warranty products used to cut down trees, poles, etc.
Massey is likely to be willing to alter his blades to suit your requirements.
Kris Cutlery has a Pompeii pattern gladius that is less expensive than a custom blade, and much less than the Albions. The Albion swords look beautiful, but are expensive.
I don't know if the Kris Cutlery is as tough as an AK khuk, but I do like the Wakizashi I got from them. I wouldn't try to chop down wood with it. Kris Cutlery says on their web site that they won't warranty products used to cut down trees, poles, etc.
