And another tree cries

Liveitloud

Liveitloud

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Jul 1, 2006
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Okay, I decided to buy a blank and make a knife. I had only basic hand tools. After ruining the first set of wood handles, I bought a vise. 2nd set came the drill press and delta 180 belt sander.

Rather than hear another tree cry from the useless loss of my inexperience, I thought I would ask for advice. I have a green river knife w/cutlery rivets. I cannot for the life of me figure out how to countersunk them right without wallering the hole out too deep or wide.

Decided I would skip the rivets and go for 3/16 steel bar. What is the best way to do this without ruining another hunk of wood? After they are inserted, how do I finish them? Sorry ahead of time but my garage is starting to give me night sweats when I walk out there. :)
 
I've made a few similar homemade knives using either heavy copper wire or the shaft of soft iron nails for the rivets. What I do is epoxy a slab to one side of the tang and after it hardens, I then drill the rivet holes. Then I epoxy the other slab on and drill the holes back through that. I "waller" the hole in the wood a little bit with the drill so it isn't too tight around the rivet and lead to a split (wood will shrink as it ages).

Before you epoxy the slabs, seal the inside surface of the slab with super glue or varnish, and then scuff it up with sandpaper on a flat surface before you epoxy them onto the tang.

Then I take a slightly larger drill bit (if you're using 3/16, try 1/4) and make a shallow beveled countersink on the rivet hole, using just the bevelled tip of the drill; just on the surface of the slab, don't go too deep. Cut the pins to just slightly longer than the thickness of the handle; about 1/16 to 1/8 of an inch longer.

Very carefully, lay the handle with pin on an anvil and very lightly start to peen the head of the rivet with a light hammer, spreading it wider than the hole, to fill the countersink. Tap it very lightly; hit it too hard and you might damage the wood or bend the rivet. Just a few taps on one side of the rivet, then a few taps on the other side, back and forth until it looks right. As you tap, move the angle of the hammer face around in a circle to get an even spread.

The result will look a little primitive, but it works, and my knives look primitive anyway. I think it could be appropriate for a Green River blade.

After the rivets are set, you can shape and sand the handle and use whatever finish you like.

I think the epoxy alone would fasten the slabs without setting rivets, but I don't think it would look right. The stuff I use is called Plastic Steel, which mixes up to a dark charcoal grey color and it's very strong.

I know this isn't the way the serious knife makers here would do it, they probably have better ideas for you. Good luck.
 
I just finished putting a handle on a Green River blank two hours ago. I'm no expert but this is how I've been doing it.

After the scales are cut out I clamp one of them with the blade and use the blade as a template to drill the first scale. I use brass rod for pins that I turn down in the drill press with a file to be a slight push fit in the holes in the scale. Drill a hole and put the pin in to keep everything where it should be and move to the next one and drill and pin.

After the first scale is drilled clamp the remaining scale on the blank so both scales are there with pins in. The pins will only go through the drilled scale and into the blank. Then use the drilled scale as a guide and drill on through the undrilled scale keeping the pins in where you can to locate everything.

Once they are drilled I set the drill press up so a bit just drills about a 1/16 of an inch into the inside of the scales and drill all around the inside of the scale staying away from the edge and counter sink the pin holes just on the inside, this gives someplace for the epoxy and lets it form around the pins. I also hog out the center of the pins where they pass through the tang so there's some room for epoxy.

Before I glue it together I put the pins in just the scales and finish the front at the rosco shaping and sanding as this area as it is very hard to finish later.

Glue it up and clamp it, I use Devcon 30 minuite epoxy and let it set over night. Then its just a mater of shaping and sanding, just sand the pins flush. If you use a belt sander be carefull not to over heat the pins as it would melt the epoxy. Also if you don't have to turn down the pins make sure you rough them up so the epoxy will bond, also rough up the tang and clean everything with acetone.

Have fun, and easy on the trees.

Chris
 
Cutlery rivets are easy. Drill your slabs. Then find a nail that has approximately the same size head as the rivet. Put the nail through the hole, and chuck the nail shank in a hand drill. Pull the head into the wood with the drill running. The rough underside of the nail will cut into the scales, countersinking them. Tap the male and female rivets flush with the scales.
As far as epoxying pins in place- this has very little advantage. If pins are not peened in place they offer little in the way of holding power.
Bill
 
Hey thanks for all the advice. I will give it another go. I'm usually pretty handy with things. I guess this isn't like replumbing the bathroom :)
I am going to practice on some scrap wood or maybe the handles I've already ruined before I try the last set of handles. I can already tell that this new belt sander is going to save me some sweat.
I appreciate y'all taking the time to respond. I'm sure I'll have more questions.
 
I like the old Green River patterns too, so I bought some a while back. Here is how I do it.

1- Cut the handle slabs a bit over size.
2- Shape the front of the slab where it will be placed just behind the rassaco.
3- Shape another slab to match the first to go on the opposite side.
4- Sand the front of both slabs as it is hard to do later.
5- Clean the tang & rough it up tang ( I use 99% wood alcohol to clean & my belt sander with 80 grit to roughen).

There was is thread in KnifeNet testing glue strength and the polyurethane glues held up far better than the epoxies, especially Devcon.

6- Position & glue one side of the handle to the tang with polyurethane glue, I use Sumo glue. Be sure to wet the wood before gluing as the water activates the polyurethane glues. Polyurethane glues do foam up (Sumo less than others) but it is easily cut away after it dries.
7- Clamp into position & allow several hours to dry.
8- Drill the attached slab through the tang, I can't miss the holes that way. :D
9- Glue the other slab on (clean & roughen up the tang & wet the wood) positioning it to match the other slab top & bottom. Be careful as the slab will tend to shift as you apply pressure. Make sure the two slabs are aligned because you won't get it off in one piece after the Sumo glue dries. :eek:
10- After the glue dries, remove the clamps and drill the holes in the second slab through the holes in the first slab. That way I never miss the holes.
11- I use cutlery rivets a lot, so I ordered a rivet drill (from Jantz Supply, but others have them). This gives me a flat bottomed hole that is centered around the first hole. I did have problems centering a Forschner bit when I tried them. Make the hole just as deep as the rivet head.
12- Press rivets on with an arbor press or with a hammer.
13- Sand & finish as desired.

I have made a dozens of knives using this method (I have a large family & give them as gifts) and it is the easiest way I have found. If you have an easier way please let me know.......I am all for easier! :D

Dale
 
orvet thanks for weighing in. I'm off this weekend and am going to go another round with this knife. Hopefully with a bit more success. Wondering how many knife handles you ruin before you either get it right or stick the blade into your eye out of sheer frustration. :confused: ;)
 
I have been using cutlery rivets for years. I assume you are talking about those squeeze type with the male and female ends that slide into each other making a firm mechanical friction fit.
1) Drill your knife handle scales out using a drill bit one size larger than the rivet. I use a 11/64 bit for 5/32 rivets.
2) After drilling the pilot hole through the handle material, drill out the hole for the head of the rivet. I use a reaming bit I bought from Koval Knives in Ohio many years ago for that purpose. You can substitute a standard drill bit the same diameter as the rivet head and drill only deep enough to accomodate the depth of the head of the rivet. Set your drill press for high speed to avoid burrs and for a smoother drill hole.
3)This step is important. Take the female rivet and stand it up on end. Then carefully flare the female end just a bit using a drift and hammer. Just a light tap will do. This will make it much much easier for the male rivet to mate with the lady rivet.
4)Now epoxy the knife handle, and place the wooden scales inplace. Use the overnight epoxy not the 5 minute kind until you are good at this. Fit the female rivets through the holes of the handle. Carefully place the male rivet into the hole and squeeze the rivets together using a vise. Be sure the rivets are lined up perfectly, or the rivets will bend and you will have no choice but to grind them off pop them out and start over again. I recomend using the vise method as the hammer method is dicey at best (I ruined alot of handles in my early days of knifemaking and found the vise works best).
5) Squeeze the handle tight in the vice and make sure glue is coming out of the seams. This will ensure good fit and finish.
6) After a few hours the glue will start to set up. As it firms up remove the excess glue from the knife blade using a piece of brass. I take small pieces of brass and grind them into a little chistle. The brass is good at scraping away excess glue without maring the finish of the blade.
7)Grind down and finish the handle.
 
I notice there is a difference in some of the glues we use. I thought it might be of interest to you to check out the very through test made on a few dozen types of glues by a couple knife makers over at knifenet. There is a 17 page thread talking about the glues & how/when they failed.

Their final recommendation for gluing wood to metal was:
Gorilla Glue beat out every other adhesive in every test
Loctite E-120hp
K&G epoxy
Golf shafting epoxy by Golfsmith
Acraglass

You can read the entire thread from start to finish at: http://www.knifenetwork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27463

Their final results are on page 16 of the thread.

I have used Gorilla Glue for the last year, until I found Sumo Glue. Sumo does not foam as bad as Gorilla and on the few occasions I have had to remove wood that was cured to a blank, I have had to finish removing the wood & glue with my belt sander as the wood breaks apart before the glue fails, even with Dyamondwood.

I found their test interesting & informative. I hope you do also.

Dale
 
Well I got into the garage last night to work on the knife. I will have to go back to the original plan of cutlery rivets. I was not able to bore out the handle holes on the knife to the 3/16 bar stock. Apparently the loaner drill press (duracraft) doesn't have the dog in the fight. It just stops :eek: trying to drill it out.

I cut the handle material and beveled the sides going closest to the blade. I used devcon to attach the volcanoes fiber and one of the handles and put it in the vice for the night. Guess we'll see what a new day brings.
 
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