And now for something completely different: WAR!

DannyinJapan

DannyinJapan

Joined
Oct 9, 2003
Messages
5,594
Wang Zaixi, a Chinese vice minister for Taiwan issues, said Thursday that China may use military force against Taiwan if Chen doesn't scrap plans to amend Taiwan's constitution by referendum by 2008.

(that means war with the USA, basically)
 
Anyone have the GPS coords for Har Meggido ( say it fast )?
 
China has been performing naval exercises around Taiwan as a threat for many years. We'll see how this pans out. I'm sure China likes being a trading partner with the US. (Where would Walmart and Target get their cheap stuff?)
 
Mr.BadExample said:
China has been performing naval exercises around Taiwan as a threat for many years. We'll see how this pans out. I'm sure China likes being a trading partner with the US. (Where would Walmart and Target get their cheap stuff?)
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Never understood that aspect. We basically isolate Cuba but China who is much more of a military AND economic threat we suck up to.
 
Y'know- if I remember my history correctly... Japan didn't decide to attack us in WWII until we officially decided to stop to directly or indirectly economically benefit Japan in any way, which was a good as a declaration of war then.

We should go ahead and stop economic support of this socialist regime now.
They have already taken way to many innocent, peaceful peoples' lives.
I don't want to see another Tibet-like incident in my lifetime (or any other).

Personally- I think Sam Walton has already turned in his grave.
 
We refused to sell Japan any more oil for her mainland expansion army to run on.

China has always threatened war over Taiwan.

It will be interesting how this shakes out.



munk
 
How many carrier Battle Groups do we have in the area right now? Is it 3 or 4?

Just a reminder for the chinese that they MIGHT invade Taiwan, (Funny, it was Formosa when I was there,) but their invasion force is going to get mighty hungry and lonesome if they do. we basicaly own the Oceans.

Anyone remember Quemoy and Matsu in '58? The Nationalist Air Force (with the help of a few Marines, (MAG 11,) kicked the bejeezuz out of the Red Chinese.

My favorite was the time 32 MIG's jumped a flight of 12 Nationalist Sabers. The score was Sabers 12, (1 each), MIG's 0. Reds didn't know we'd hung some sidewinders on the Nationalist sabers.

Best part was, when we got the films back, every kill was right uo the tail pipe, they could have done it with unguided rockets. Seems the Nationalist pilots hadn't quite grasped the concept of a heat seeker. If they had, China would have been short 32 MIG's. My friend, who "trained" them, blamed it on a bad interpreter.

Things calmed down a lot after that.
 
From what I understand , they have been making quite a few,
" we rule the sea " thing may not be exactly the best description?
I wouldn't know , I'm not an expert in Navel matters. A large sub fleet ( conventional or not) proper wielded could effect the balance on Taiwan could it not?

Also consider this , the more involved we are elsewhere, the less they will have to worry about. This is true in a political sense as well as a
military sense. It would serve to embolden folk a bit.

I certainly hope we don't have to Chalk up Taiwan as "other costs" of the Iraq war.

Also for Cuba, it's political. You get votes in South Florida for
not dealing with them, as theoritically Cuba is going to
collapse, Red China is too large to just collapse , especially with all the
economic reforms. I don't think you could gain any votes or corporate political money from isolating China......It is the where most of the growth for
the consumer market is supposed to be for the next 10 to 20 years.
 
China may have a lot of internal troubles to deal with by 2008. They have 700-900 million peasants that have essentially seen no change for the better. Things are getting worse for them. Rural government is corrupt, and they are forbidden to move to the cities.

China has been running two economies, one for the urban areas and one for the countryside.

It was the plight of peasants that led to the cultural revolution.

Here are a couple of interesting links.

http://www.usembassy-china.org.cn/sandt/peasantsuffering.html

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/FG17Ad03.html

There is current story running concerning a youth who stepped in front of a train because he couldn't afford the pay the remainder of his high school fees. He was forbidden to take the college entrance exam, though he qualified, because of a remaining $80 debt to the school. The school fees were about equal to what his guardians could earn. He had to live with his grandparents because his parents couldn't afford to pay the fine that would have been imposed for having two children.

There also are some Western provinces that desire independence.
 
One other thing to remember about China, they got nukes.

Anyways, as Firkin noted change is inevetable in China, but just what that change may be is of great concern. I would rather have some kind of foot in the door to attempt to steer the change that will affect 1/5 of the worlds population than sit aside and hope isolation bothers them, as we did during the great leap forward and the cultural revolution. Maybe impetus for change is not always best found through arms, but Mcdonald's and fast cars.
 
brantoken said:
From what I understand , they have been making quite a few,
" we rule the sea " thing may not be exactly the best description?
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Actually, I should have said,"At the present time, we own the oceans." that situatuion can well be very different in 10 or 15 years. Sooner if we get an administration willing to sell them our naval technology, as was done with icbm technology. At the present time they are considered a non-problem for our navy. When the decision was made to put 7 Battle Groups to sea by September, there was a lot of discussion and documentation on several of the Gun Boards. Probably AK-47.net had the most in depth resources.
_____________________________________________________________
I wouldn't know , I'm not an expert in Navel matters. A large sub fleet ( conventional or not) proper wielded could effect the balance on Taiwan could it not?
______________________________________________________________
I'm certainly no expert either, just an old jar-head who got around a bit in the "good old days". Seemingly at the present time, their subs cannot hide from our Survalliance. I believe they're not even close to the standards of the old USSR Navy, and they were not the best. Supposedly we know where they are all the time. That basicaly means they're dead if we want them to be so.
_______________________________________________________________

Also consider this , the more involved we are elsewhere, the less they will have to worry about. This is true in a political sense as well as a
military sense. It would serve to embolden folk a bit.
_______________________________________________________________

I agree with you there, but apparently our navel assets aren't particularly straind by events in Iraq or Afghanistan. Supposedly we expected their current and upcoming "exercise" so we put 7 Battle Groups to Sea to demonstrate we could do it. I think, a modern U.S Carriere Battle group is an awesome and devastating armada. Seven at sea at one time is definite overkill. If I recall correctly, 3 in theater would be considered sufficent to take out the Chinese Airforce, Navy, and most of their larger Cities. Of course we'd take serious loses, but that's all part of the equation also.
________________________________________________________________
I certainly hope we don't have to Chalk up Taiwan as "other costs" of the Iraq war.

______________________________________________________________
Unlikey, most feel our current Administration would honor our treaty's with Taiwan! China no longer refers to the President of the United States as "our man in Washington". Or so I'm told.
______________________________________________________________

Also for Cuba, it's political. You get votes in South Florida for
not dealing with them, as theoritically Cuba is going to
collapse, Red China is too large to just collapse , especially with all the
economic reforms. I don't think you could gain any votes or corporate political money from isolating China......It is the where most of the growth for
the consumer market is supposed to be for the next 10 to 20 years

.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Except I thought South Florida was kind of mixed, the older immigrants want to invade Cuba tomorrow, and the younger ones don't especially care. But, that's from relatives living there who are not, to put it kindly, especially politically astute.

Probably some Navy or former Navy folks on the Forum that are far more knowledgeable, who could shed better light on this.

Be Safe!

Gary
 
Federico said:
I would rather have some kind of foot in the door to attempt to steer the change that will affect 1/5 of the worlds population than sit aside and hope isolation bothers them, as we did during the great leap forward and the cultural revolution. Maybe impetus for change is not always best found through arms, but Mcdonald's and fast cars.
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I totally agree with you. I just can't figure out why we don't do that with Cuba too then.
 
Hollow just wait till the exile community in Florida loses its grip as a voting block, or Fidel dies. IMHO I figure too many people have made a career at lambasting Fidel on all sides for things to change till at least a few superficial circumstances move around so they can have a face saving exit. My personal feeling, is that Fidel could be replaced by a three legged Cyclops who eats children for breakfast, and still that would be enough change for the professional Fidel haters to claim a victory over communism in Cuba. Thogh on another note the bitterness of the elders though is often forgotten by the youth, though it is sad when the joys of the elder ones is lost as well.
 
well, Treaties with Australia state that basically their enemy is our enemy, and vice versa, and they're kinda wards over Phillipines and Taiwan...

Personally, I think it's just more saber rattling. I'm more worried about their economic moves and clout currently.

Keith
 
Japan was planning to take over the world since the 20's.
They sent droves of spies and killers into China in the 20s and 30s to destabilize their govt.
This is not commonly known, but there were dozens of Japanese men caught taking depth soundings off of the major city harbors in America in the early 30's. (they were stripped of their data and deported)

"pulled into war" ? my ass.
 
DannyinJapan said:
Japan was planning to take over the world since the 20's.
They sent droves of spies and killers into China in the 20s and 30s to destabilize their govt.
This is not commonly known, but there were dozens of Japanese men caught taking depth soundings off of the major city harbors in America in the early 30's. (they were stripped of their data and deported)

"pulled into war" ? my ass.
Click to expand...

Didn't know that, interesting!

My Step-Father was captured on Bataan and ended up in Japan crawling through little tunnels with a 5 gallon bucket of ore. Weighed 135 when the war ended, weighed 225 when captured, 6'2" UW football scholarship before his guard unit was called up.

He commented several times at the number of higher ranking Japanese Army Officers who had been educated in U.S. Colleges and Universities. One had obtained his engineering degree from UW Madison in '32.

We met one of them in the late '50's, he apologised to my dad for the way the prisoners were treated, but explained he had no choice. He also said he had already been commissioned before he was sent to UCLA. That was his assignment, go to the U.S. and learn everything he could about Americans.

Always makes me wonder about the flood of chinese students we've had in Wisconsin for the last 15 years or so.

Best wishes
Gary
 
The Japanese are, or at least were, a very warlike race. Im not sure, but I remember seeing on the History Channel that the Japanese had taken tons of radioactive scrap metal from the Hiroshima and Nagisaki bomb sites and had sent ships to try to explode it in a cloud over L.A. This was somehow stopped, but I dont rememember how. Speaking of WWII enemies, did anyone hear about how the Germans made a baby that was twice as strong as a usual baby? Makes you wonder if they really did give up on the whole aryan superiority thing :rolleyes: .

P.S, I am German :footinmou
 
I could easily be wrong, but the conquest of China and trading routes by Japan began slightly before 1900. At any rate, it was before 1920. They had a long range plan drawn. China took many years.



munk
 
Munk,
I am certain you are correct on that...

Jebediah, I just realized how funny you are...
"Dryden, where dreams die faster than the Kennedys"
 
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