anealing at magnetic north?/katana help too

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elvenbladesmith07

Joined
Jul 29, 2004
Messages
663
whats this idea of heating a blade to non-magnetic and pointing it niorth suposed to do? reading up on katanas cause im making 1 soon out of 1084 and i stumbled across a page that talks about annealing while facing the point of the blade north? wtf is this bladsmithing is art and science not magic? is it so the grain lines up or something? i highley doubt the northern magnetic field would have an effect on a hot blade so far away! any resoning awailably would be appreciated! this is driving me nuts.
also i read that 1084 can only be heat treated to retain a rc hardness of c40. is that ok for a katana? i know don fogg uses 1086 and his blades are great. anyway this blade will be far to big for me to heat treat. any1 know of any heat treaters in northern ohio? somewhere near lake erie, toledo, or clevland? maybe there is even 1 in lorain county?
 
The longer I live within the knife making community the more I believe knife makers are akin to the superstitions and mystical beliefs held by baseball players. My advise about your question: FORGET IT. Science and mystisism do not over lap well. Other than that, I always heat treat my blades while wearing nothing but my Fruit of the Looms.

To be more specific about giving good advise, if there is a direction best for the point of blade to point during high temperatures it is down - toward the center of the earth. That is good advise for both high temperature portions of the heat treat and for FULL quench.

RL
 
1084 can get plenty harder then RC40, I'm not sure of the exact high end as quenched, but I believe it's in the low to mid 60's. Of course you'd likely want to temper it a bit softer then that, but hardness isn't really an issue with 1084.
 
OH!!! NO!!! Don't get Higgy going, he'll be coming down here again and be looking to stick a virgin. :eek: :eek:
 
The "myth" has to do with the fact that as a blade is heated to austenizing temps it has a transition called the Curie point at which it becomes nonmagnetic. The superstition is that as it re-transits to magnetic as it cools, the magnetic orientation of the earth can affect the steel. It is not so much magnetic north as being parallel to what are called "lay lines".

Magnetism is an odd beastie, as is the human psyche. I know at least a half-dozen people who swear that by wearing a magnetic wrist, elbow, back, or shoesole band their arthritis is improved. Several companies are making a mint selling pieces of twisted stainless cable bracelets with magnets on the end for ridiculous prices.

When I was originally taught to quench blades it was with the caveat they needed to be oriented properly with the magnetic field of the earth. Imagine my surprise when I "blew it" and yet the blade didn't warp.... ;)
 
I say "why not?" There is a plant called Tribulus that only has certain therapeutic properties when grown in parts of Bulgaria. I know people who've taken seeds from those plants and planted them elsewhere and the plants are completely different. Then they tried the seeds AND dirt from Bulgaria, but again, the plants had a different phytochemical profile outside of Bulgaria. Then they tried seeds, dirt and Bulgarian water, still no luck. They can use magnets to vibrate atoms in your body and make a picture of your from the inside out, so who knows? :D
 
I see it as two differing schools of study. There is the scientific method, and the neo-tribal method. If chanting and annealing with blade tip pointed north during a full moon is your gig, then by all means do it. If not then do it according to Mete's advice. The crazy thing is that either method works to make a decent knife blade.

Hey IG... I thought you said Grasshoppa took care of all those virgins in New Bedford?
 
Steve, my complaint is not with the fact people want to believe these things, but the fact that when questioned, there is no data to back it up. I've never seen any controlled experiments about blade quenching and the magnetic field of the earth, so I don't know true or not.

There's more anger at the fact that some companies sell small-cost items like some $90 magnetic wrist bracelet for big bucks and carefully construct claims to misle the customer while having legalese jumble their fine-print caveats. Much like many supplements that imply big benefits then say "This product makes no claims for medical benefit" in the small type. I resent the fact that there are so many conmen screwing with people's health.

You'll notice that while I have a substantial skepticism about many of these things I don't directly lambast them. I have to agree with Jeff that as long as the blade turns out straight, it's of little concern which way someone points or what incantation they utter when quenching. I would not be surprised to find out that, we're a blade quenched inside an NMR or MRI, there WOULD be some effect. ;)

There is much folklore that, when science studies it, does have some basis in fact. There is also a lot that turns out to be simple doodoo. Sorta like turning one's ball cap inside out is going to start a rally in the 9th inning......
 
so in all doing it wont hurt but if u dont believe the tales dont bother
AWP im gunna fully harden the blade and do a stress relief temper then im gunna lock a section of the blade in a vice with a wet rag inbetween the blade and jaws of the vice then heat the back of the blade, so its differencial tempering. yeah i cheated but i cant have a heat treater do the clay method can i?same results tho :)
 
Not exactly the same results. The clay-treated or edge-quenched blade will presumably have a pearlite spine, whereas the whole blade quench will, I think, convert (essentially) all to martensite then you will be tempering, then retempering the spine back to highly softened martensite. I don't believe you'll get the spine back to a different crystal structure, though I may be incorrect. Perhaps mete will lend a more technical opinion. That said, there are any number of smiths who prefer to not have the full-soft spine and thus pursue the method you are considering.

Regardless, when done right it's a good way to do a blade.
 
Fitzo's right. If clay harden you'll get martensite edge , pearlite spine. If you full harden you will get martensite ,then you can torch the spine and get a spine softer than the edge.It's a little more difficult to control but you'll get a stronger blade.
 
Science and mystisism do not over lap well.

Rodger, you and Mete are no fun anymore. Soon you two will be telling people it does no good to burn a sock profiling! :footinmou
 
The benefit of allowing any iron carbon alloy to transform in proper alignment with true magnetic north comes from the affects that the ferromagnetic pull that will be exerted upon the optic chiasma field in certain subatomic portions of the iron atom nuclei, particularly the fluctuating isochronic pulses of the top quark. This invariably results in very specialized dichasium affect on the metal throughout. Podzolic-intermetallic systems, such as those in a monoeuctectic steel, particularly blade type cross sections, respond very profoundly to this by developing very fine tuned harmonic reverberations throughout the matrix. These reverberations, or “waves” if you will, may be manifested most evidently at the third node on double edged blades and 45% of the distance to the fourth node on a single edged blade, such as the katana mentioned in the original question (- 3.25% for blades made in the Heian period, due to a state of flux that was evident in the Earths magnetic field for that time).

If you think this is nonsense take such a blade and pass the area in question over a vibrating violin string at exactly .132” distance and listen to the pitch change! Chillitube Inc. (a cryo service) has found that suspending such a blade over a vat of diatinaceous liquid helium can expand this area out to perhaps 50% of the blade length and soon hope to offer the service for less than $200/ inch!

Repeat such a treatment enough times and I would expect to be able to cut a hemp rope at least 600 times more gracefully than if you were smoking the same!

You see it all makes perfect sense to align that austenite to true north, heck 1400years ago the Aztecs new enough to do this with their obsidian blades, so what the heck do these idiot scientists know? Mete, all that time spent in labs has clouded your mind to the truth, so if you can’t beat em, join em!

Now I got to get back out to the shop, today I hammered a pile of steel so small and dense that I can’t move it off the anvil and I am afraid that it will begin warping my anvil face (it already is pulling things nearer to it, due to the increasing gravity :eek: )
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
The benefit of allowing any iron carbon alloy to transform in proper alignment with true magnetic north comes from the affects that the ferromagnetic pull that will be exerted upon the optic chiasma field in certain subatomic portions of the iron atom nuclei, particularly the fluctuating isochronic pulses of the top quark. This invariably results in very specialized dichasium affect on the metal throughout. Podzolic-intermetallic systems, such as those in a monoeuctectic steel, particularly blade type cross sections, respond very profoundly to this by developing very fine tuned harmonic reverberations throughout the matrix. These reverberations, or “waves” if you will, may be manifested most evidently at the third node on double edged blades and 45% of the distance to the fourth node on a single edged blade, such as the katana mentioned in the original question (- 3.25% for blades made in the Heian period, due to a state of flux that was evident in the Earths magnetic field for that time).

If you think this is nonsense take such a blade and pass the area in question over a vibrating violin string at exactly .132” distance and listen to the pitch change! Chillitube Inc. (a cryo service) has found that suspending such a blade over a vat of diatinaceous liquid helium can expand this area out to perhaps 50% of the blade length and soon hope to offer the service for less than $200/ inch!

Repeat such a treatment enough times and I would expect to be able to cut a hemp rope at least 600 times more gracefully than if you were smoking the same!

You see it all makes perfect sense to align that austenite to true north, heck 1400years ago the Aztecs new enough to do this with their obsidian blades, so what the heck do these idiot scientists know? Mete, all that time spent in labs has clouded your mind to the truth, so if you can’t beat em, join em!

Now I got to get back out to the shop, today I hammered a pile of steel so small and dense that I can’t move it off the anvil and I am afraid that it will begin warping my anvil face (it already is pulling things nearer to it, due to the increasing gravity :eek: )
Click to expand...

Hey Kevin... what scotch are you drinking these days whilst you are rubbing out your blades? Think the peatiness may have some affect on the final blade? I find that a 25 year old sherry oak Macallan makes my blades look much better after several liberal doses :p ;)
 
jhiggins said:
Hey Kevin... what scotch are you drinking these days whilst you are rubbing out your blades? Think the peatiness may have some affect on the final blade? I find that a 25 year old sherry oak Macallan makes my blades look much better after several liberal doses :p ;)
Click to expand...
HEHEHEHE!!! ;) ;)
 
30 year Laphroig is better for large blades.
If ,IF,this method were true in any way,it would be far more powerful to erect an electro magnetic field in your forge and hold the blade in it before quenching.Of course all the watches and clocks in the area may stop working,and ...HEY! where did Higgy's shop go,it was there a minute ago!!??? What was that movie,the Philadelphia experiment? seriously,the earths magnetic field is so weak that it is deflected by a kids toy magnet.And what will happen to those swords when the magnetic poles flip in a few thousand years?
 
I want a report on knife making since saturday because we have been bombarded by a HUGE class X solar flare [ been wearing a collander on my head] . That certainly must have a great effect on the properties of the blade.
 
Perhaps lining that collander with some heavy duty Reynolds Wrap will work better? METE! Take care of yourself, huh? Geebus, man. We need our resident metallurgist. ;)
 
Reynolds Wrap will work better? METE

5160 works better. Many times I use the scraps to ward off government mind control techniques.

The trick to it is to weld the scraps so the holes are no greater than one half wavelength.

Another trick that works well is to use a 5160 blade to split airborne atoms. If you create a vortex with the spine it causes controlled linear fission. I once killed a Grizzly bear at 200 yards using this technique....that's another story.

If you don't create a containment vortex, the splitting atoms will cause sort of an umbrella of protective radiation around you.

Let me know if you would like to hear my theory on global warming! ;)
 
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