annealing ideas

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Feb 16, 2010
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What's the easiest way to anneal a file without sending it out? I want to make a knife by this weekend and only have a file to start from. How long would it need to be in flame to anneal it? And, no, I can't light the bonfire, it is still under 6" of snow.
 
easiest is to not anneal it... just temper it (try 375 F) and grind. if you anneal you will have to re-harden and temper, and that probably won't happen by the weekend
 
Ok, that kind of makes sense. I would presume that an oven would work. Heat to 375 for X minutes and allow to air cool? How much will be affected while grinding and how do I re-harden?
 
I never anneal them, I just normalize in the forge. but a blowtorch would also do the trick.
 
temper@ 375 for an hour. Do not let the blade heat up during grinding, so dip it in water constantly, or , if you are using a handheld grinder keep a bucket of water and a sponge handy to wash the heat away. If the blade turns blue it will be too soft in that spot. You're in for a lot of time at the grinder if you don't have access to good abrasives.

If you have some kind of belt sander that will work too, and you might find some good belts for it, but watch for heat build up in the plastic bits. An angle grinder can be useful too, with a cut off wheel to profile, a regular wheel to rough grind, and sanding disks of various grits.

If you don't overheat during grinding then the blade won't need more thermal treatment, though another temper at around 350 willl remove stresses from the grinding. If you do overheat then you pretty much need to anneal and re-harden, you'll need a forge or a big torch or a heat treatment oven to do that.

I made knives that way when I started out. I don't miss it!

By the way the file teeth weaken the blade so don't use it for throwing or prying etc

Wait a minute, I sort of do miss it! I think I might make a video...
 
Or get your lazy, cityfied, candy arse outside, grab a shovel, clear a place and ... build a bon fire, roast some weinies and marshmallows, with the family, throw a file into the fire, dig it out next afternoon, (becareful there will probably be hot coals still) now you have a an ANNEALED file to grind a knife out of with the lines still intact. when ready sprinkle some table salt on the blade, and heat back up the file till salt melts FAST. then quench in MCMaster Carr 11 second oil (about 20 bux for a gallon) plunge straight in, no side to side and no yaw one way or the other a little downward angle is fine.

Jason
 
Putting pure salt ( kosher or rock) on a piece of steel is an old blacksmith trick to determine when the metal is at the approximate temperature to quench. Rock salt melts at 1300F/700C. In the modern age, a magnet is easier to use, and tells you when the metal reaches about 1350F/735C.

A file ( assumed to be about 1095/W1) steel needs to be heated to about 100F/50C degrees higher than non-magnetic temperature ( around 1450F/785C). If being annealed, it needs to cool slowly after being heated to 1450F. If being hardened, it needs to be held at that temperature for a few minutes, and then quenched in a fast oil or brine. You will need, at the minimum, a propane torch ( Bernzomatic JT-7 torch will work) to do both the annealing and the hardening. Throwing the file in the coals is not a good system.
Tempering in the kitchen oven at 375-450F ( 190-230C) for one or two hours will be necessary after hardening ( or to bring down the too hard file to a usable hardness).

Understand that these methods will very likely not produce a good knife, and that it will take longer than a weekend.


zaph1:
From your posts to date, I would assume that you are a young father who is rather compulsive ( not meant in a bad way).
Knife making is a skill that takes time to do and time to learn. I would recommend that you read a book or two on knifemaking, read the stickies at the top of this forum, and then figure out if knifemaking is for you. It would be a good idea to post a query on this forum asking if any makers in the Altoona area would have you come over to learn a bit ( and thus you would get access to some proper equipment). Attending a hammer-in in your region will be a huge leap in learning.

Also, a lot of information is given on forums like this and others. Some of it is good advise for new makers,some of it is good for those who already understand the craft, and some of it is not good advise at all. Reading some books, and some tutorials online will help filter this somewhat.
This site has some of the best around here. If you have an attitude that you are asking questions to learn, and will listen, then you will get some good answers from professionals. If you are more interested in telling how and why you are going to do things your way....to those who do it all the time.....you will mostly get answers from people who have built only a few knives...or are working on their first knife.

Every one of the great makers on this forum made a "first knife". Most were pretty sorry looking. We all crawled before we walked. Take your time and learn the right ways. It will be safer and more enjoyable.

Final question, and it is more out of curiosity than related to knife making - how old are you, and what experience with explosives do you have?
 
Pure Sodium Chloride melts at 1475ºF. Which is the proper quench temp for 1095 / W1 steel. However table salt has some impurities that would lower the melting temp so you have to wait until it starts melting fast usually, to be sure you've reached the right temp. As with anything, practice and test till you get it right. :)

lol Stacy you hit the button faster than me!


Jason
 
A quality file is a hypereutectoid steel, and has a wonderful grain structure as is. It would be a shame to mess this structure up if not necessary. Instead of a common anneal, you might want to try three, or four, dull red heats below the non-magnetic range and see if that gets it soft enough to work. This should spheroidize the carbon without changing the grain structure, and should make the steel easy to file and drill. Just a thought.
 
Stacy: I just turned 37 and the explosives comment comes from a cannon that some friends and I built that is powered by 1g of KClO4+AL (flash powder). It will shoot a tennis ball about 200 feet. Very safe at about 90 MPH and very fun. Besides, who doesn't like the Fourth of July fireworks.
 
Does this still need done if I send it in to get heat treated? I'm not gonna try annealing and hardening myself, I will leave that to the experts. I want to focus on grinding for now.


Tempering in the kitchen oven at 375-450F ( 190-230C) for one or two hours will be necessary after hardening ( or to bring down the too hard file to a usable hardness).

Understand that these methods will very likely not produce a good knife, and that it will take longer than a weekend.
 
If you absolutely have to make a knife for this weekend just keep the file under 400 degrees (don't let any part get hot enough to turn anything past a straw color, and it will sneak up on you, so go slow) then when finished temper it in the oven...

Don't be discouraged if that isn't a great first knife, and don't totally discount the possibility of doing your own heat treats, if you think it's just going to be too complicated or expensive... if you ordered some 1084 (really great, cheap steel) and put together the previously mentioned JTH7 torch with a well carved 'one brick forge', you can do your own heat treating with practice. It's time consuming turning a piece of steel into a knife (more so if it's not a nice annealed piece of steel) so why not put in the extra 20% effort to heat treat it correctly and REALLY marvel at how resilient and sharp the tool you made is?

Just throwing it out there, it's your knife. :)

I think I spent $40 on the torch and the soft firebrick together. The brick is soft and you can use almost anything to carve the holes into it.

Good luck and welcome to the forums.
 
My bad. I was remembering salt as having a melting point of 700C....it is 800C, or 1475F.
Thanks, Jason, for the catch.
 
there's a series of 4 videos on youtube by a guy named "greenpete", he takes a file, anneals it in a good hot fire till the fire dies, grinds his knife out and then heat treats it in a forge he built by digging a hole in the ground, putting a plate in the bottom with a small drain grate in the center thats attached to a length of pipe running to a car a/c fan. He then draws the spine back with a blow torch and finishes.

do a search for "greenpete" and watch all 4 videos, he does everything with hand tools or power tools ran off of car batteries. very neat set of videos
 
btw, he made his knife in the span of probably 2 days. one evening of letting the file anneal in the fire till it dies and cools, then the next day doing all the work on it.
 
there's a series of 4 videos on youtube by a guy named "greenpete", he takes a file, anneals it in a good hot fire till the fire dies, grinds his knife out and then heat treats it in a forge he built by digging a hole in the ground, putting a plate in the bottom with a small drain grate in the center thats attached to a length of pipe running to a car a/c fan. He then draws the spine back with a blow torch and finishes.

do a search for "greenpete" and watch all 4 videos, he does everything with hand tools or power tools ran off of car batteries. very neat set of videos
Greenpete actually has a website that you can download an ISO of the complete video and burn to disc or mount on a virtual drive and watch uninterrupted, That was one of the first ones I watched when I was going to make my first knife. I found it helpful but not as helpful as have you guy answer my questions
 
Greenpete actually has a website that you can download an ISO of the complete video and burn to disc or mount on a virtual drive and watch uninterrupted, That was one of the first ones I watched when I was going to make my first knife. I found it helpful but not as helpful as have you guy answer my questions


If you can use torrent files, you can get the GreenPete video here:

http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4995247/Greenpete_s__Knifemaking_Basics_-_Make_a_Mora_Bushcraft_Knife
 
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