Another case of Zero Tolerance.

Joined
Feb 22, 1999
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<a href="http://news.excite.com/news/ap/000524/08/scout-suspended">http://news.excite.com/news/ap/000524/08/scout-suspended</a>

An Eagle Scout who was also an honors student had a pocketknife and cellphone in his car, with an axe in trunk, and was suspended.

Is this something that the ATKI can help out with? Or better yet, maybe the Boy Scouts of America will help him out.

Here is some contact info. tell them what you think about this one:

Virginia Edwards
Superintendent (912) 201-5585
schatham@peachnet.campuscwix.net

Dr. Robert Gilbert (The doofus quoted in the above linked article)
Associate Superintendent Middle/High Schools (912)201-5871

 
Here's the e-mail I just sent to the superintendent:

From the news:
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SAVANNAH, Ga. (AP) - An honors student and active Boy Scout has been suspended from his high school for having an ax, a pocketknife and a cellular phone in his car - objects banned from school property.
Brian Agnew, an Eagle Scout, was sent to the principal's office May 9 after school officials were tipped off to the items in his car.

Brian said he had used the ax the night before at a Boy Scout meeting, where he demonstrated the proper handling of scouting tools. In his car's glove box, there was a pocketknife his father gave him for advancing in scouting and a cell phone for emergencies.

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Ridiculous. And not a very good lesson in civics either.

"Zero tolerance" where policy is not tempered with common sense is a bit like a knife blade that is hardened but not tempered. In use, it will break.

A car goes to a lot of places besides school, and may be owned and used by other family members who are not subject to school rules and regulations. And a car may well have emergency or camping gear stored in it. Like a tire iron or a shovel or a big 4-cell aluminum flashlight, for example. Or a cell phone. It is completey unreasonable to for a school to discipline a student for items locked in his or her car, which the student would not normally carry to class.

If I go to a Los Angeles courthouse, and I have a pocket knife (and why would anybody walk around without one?), the security people at the metal detector will simply tell me to take it back to my car, which might well be parked on courthouse property.

A US domestic airline will normally tell me to put the axe in checked baggage and to leave the cell phone turned off in flight, and will say nothing about an ordinary pocket knife.

A scout's knife and axe are not weapons. A cellular phone in a car is a sensible life support system. There was no threat to the safety and good order of the school, and therefore the punishment was unjust.

Sincerely,



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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
 
http://www.savannahmorningnews.com/CURRENT/LOCaxed.shtml

Scout axed from school

Jenkins junior suspended for having knife, ax in car used for scouting activities.


By Jenel Few
Savannah Morning News

Brian Agnew is a Jenkins High School junior, Eagle Scout and honors student. And his parents couldn't be more proud.

He scored 1,000 on the SAT when he was in seventh grade, he's a member of the National Honor Society, is taking three Advanced Placement courses, plays the trumpet in the school band, leads a school group called Warriors for Christ, and he's a senior patrol leader for Boy Scout Troop 26 and recently completed his Eagle Scout project -- an outdoor trail at May Howard Elementary School.

But he also got suspended for having a knife, an ax and a cell phone in his car and has to finish out the school year at an alternative school as part of his punishment.

On May 9 while Brian was in first-period physics, he was called out of class and sent to the principal's office because the administration received an anonymous tip from someone who said he might have weapons in his car. Brian's parents say their son was set up.

"We think it was a student," his father, David Agnew, said. "We don't know if it was a jealousy thing or a grudge."

Brian admitted there was an ax locked in his trunk and agreed to a search of his car.

School officials found the ax head and the handle which, according to his father, had broken off some months earlier. David Agnew said his father had given it to him 20 years ago, and he passed it down to Brian. Brian kept it even after the handle broke off because it reminded him of his grandfather.

His father said the ax had been used a month earlier on his Eagle Scout project at May Howard and the night before at a Boy Scout meeting, where Brian demonstrated the proper handling of scouting tools.

In the glove box there was a pocketknife his father had purchased for him for advancing in scouting and a cell phone his father gave him for safety.

The ax, knife and cell phone are all banned from school property under the Savannah-Chatham County School System's "Student Code of Conduct."

Number two on the Code of Conduct's list of 10 Level I Misbehaviors is bringing nuisance and nonrelated items on school property -- including telephones and other electronic devices.

Sixth on the list of 10 acts that are punishable as a designated felony and warrant mandatory student referral to alternative school is using, exhibiting or possessing an illegal knife or club or any other prohibited weapon.

Ninth on the list of 19 behaviors warranting expulsion and referral to court is possession or use of any dangerous instrument which may be used to inflict bodily harm, including knives.

The Student Code of Conduct lists all of the school system's expectations and responsibilities for students and their parents, according to Pat Leslie, the system administrator who handles the 50-page document.

"It's given to students in the beginning of the year and it is given to their parents who have to sign for it," Leslie said. "We do that so they know the consequences and so they know exactly what the school rules are."

The consequences for Brian Agnew included an automatic 10-day suspension and transfer to alternative school from May 9-22.

That meant he was banned from regular campus activities and Jenkins High School. He missed the spring band concert, the National Honors Society Banquet, the Honors Night ceremony, the junior prom and two advanced placement exams, according to his father.

Then a hearing was held so an administrative panel could determine punishment for the possession of the ax and knife -- behaviors that typically warrant expulsion and criminal charges.

His parents hired an attorney and students and family friends testified about the clean-cut boy's stellar behavior and accomplishments. Many of David Agnew's colleagues who had never met his son joined the cause because they felt it was unfair to punish someone with such an upstanding reputation.

"We hoped the 10 days would be the end," his father said. "But they decided he would get long-term suspension and he can't come back to school until the fall."

Because the long-term suspension will extend through the summer, Brian Agnew won't be able to go to Washington, D.C., with the high school band and perform at a White House Bicentennial celebration. And they're concerned that he might not be able to attend the Governor's Honors program at Valdosta State this summer.

"My son has suffered enough. My family has suffered enough," David Agnew said. "My son is being offered as sacrifice on the altar of policy."

People, he said, are more important than policy.

"I knew he had the ax in the car. He knew he had the ax in the car. But I never considered it a weapon -- I considered it a tool," David Agnew said.

But should a school system that has had three campus shooting incidents and three student deaths in four years make exceptions to the zero tolerance weapons rules?

Just two months ago three students were shot in front of Beach High School after leaving a school dance. Two of them died. In 1996 a student was shot to death by a schoolmate on campus. Two months later a Groves High school student fired off two shots at students in the media center and attempted a third but his gun jammed.

In an era in which students throughout the country have chosen to settle their differences and express their frustrations with deadly campus violence, school officials say they can't afford to be flexible with their weapons policies. To exempt a student in possession of two banned weapons because he is a nice guy and didn't intend on hurting anyone could open up the door for too many other excuses for breaking rules.

"We have rules and regulations that are in print and we must abide by those guidelines," said Robert Gilbert, associate superintendent of schools.

Still, many of Agnew's supporters have gone to school administrators and board members to try to get the suspension rescinded.

They argue that there is a need for a zero tolerance policy, but not one that affects good kids. And Brian Agnew, they say, is a really good kid who is being made to suffer because of an inflexible, unforgiving policy.

"There's a fear and probably an overwhelming caution of these kinds of things but we have a choice to make and the board has a choice to make," said Skidaway Presbyterian Church Rev. Todd Collier. "Dictate decisions by fear or by sound reasoning based upon the facts of each case."

Collier only knows of the boy's reputation. But he said that was enough to compel him to speak to Jenkins High School Principal Freddie Gilyard.

"Here's a kid with no record of bad behavior or violence -- nothing but stellar performance. He's not walking around like some thug in the hallway," Collier said. "You can't lump them all in the same basket. You've got to handle case by case."

The boys' parents and supporters don't think the school system should have a predetermined list of crimes and punishments. They believe administrators should look past the infractions and consider a student's intent and past record before a punishment is determined.

"The only crime committed was that the better part of my son's junior year has been robbed from him," David Agnew said.

But School Police Chief Ulysses Bryant said board policy is separate from state law. Carrying an ax in your trunk and a knife in your glove compartment might not be illegal under state law, he said. But board policy prohibits it and if you bring those things on campus you will have to adhere to consequences it established to maintain order and safety.

If you're a box boy carrying a box cutter for work, if you have a steak knife in your lunch bag to cut up leftovers, even if you're an Eagle Scout with an ax and knife for scouting, Bryant said it will not be tolerated.

But David Agnew said he isn't ashamed of anything his son has done. "My son is not a criminal, he's not a villain. He's more than paid his due."

He is working with an attorney to plan an appeal to the school board.

"I told him I was so sorry a Boy Scout pocket knife I had given him for advancement in Boy Scouts and an ax I passed on to him was being used against him."

Higher education reporter Jenel Few can be reached at jfew@savannahnow.com or 652-0325.


 
I hope they sue the Sh**! out of that school district.This is a bunch of crap people shouldn't put up with this.If someone is going on a shooting rampage the last thing they give a crap about is violating a school policy.I say parents need to be more active in they're childs life and give them the right discipline when they are younger so they know right from wrong and that there's a punishment for wrong.When someone breaks the law and shoots someone they need to be imprisoned for the rest of they're life or get the death penalty no matter if they are 14 yrs old or 80yrs old.People need to be responsable for they're actions.This zero tolerance for pocket knives though is pretty lame.My two cents,Ralph
 
Did you know?
The Statue of Liberty in NY now faces east, away from the US.....
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D.T. UTZINGER
 
I sent an email to the school officials. Not exactly as well put as it could have been, but I hope they are able to see my point.

What a sad day when a Boy Scout will be punished for having in his car, the traditional and wonderful tools that are a part of their tradition. "Zero Tolerance" is a policy that is fundamentally flawed. I was a Boy Scout, and I always had a pocket knife with me, it was always a wonderful tool to me. My son is not a scout, but he has many pocket knives, and it offends me to think that somebody would assume he has them for evil purposes. He knows that a pocket knife comes with responsibilities, and that any misuse will bring severe punishment on him, not the tool. Sure, there are those that would mis-use the pocket knife, and the individuals that do so are the ones that should receive "zero tolerance", not the item that they have misused. From the article I read on this particular story, I fail to see where the Eagle Scout did anything immoral or wrong. I only hope that someday, people such as yourself will realize that there are NO evil knives, axes or guns, just evil people, and those people should be punished, not the responsible folks who carry their tools for the purpose of survival, or just to make their lives a bit easier. In closing, I would say, that anybody who assumes that knives and axes by nature are evil, are misinformed. A pocket knife can be a tool of survival, or simply an enjoyable tool used to pass the time whittling sticks on a warm afternoon....doesnt sound evil to me, how about you? Thanks much for your time, and I hope I have gotten my point across.

Richard Todd


End of email....back to posting
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It bothers me to see these people automatically referring to a knife and ax as a weapon. Like anything else, it is not by nature a weapon, its a tool. Should somebody wrongly use it as a weapon, then they should be severely punished. To me, it would seem that underneath it all, its a VERY dangerous trend to see people assuming that a knife is by nature a weapon, and they refuse to beleive that its a tool. To see a policy against weapons, and regardless of circumstance, they lump all knives in that policy is very disturbing to me. It will be interesting in years to come to see how all these things turn out.

Richard


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Richard
icq 61363141
Just some knife pictures
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=110070&a=4518795
 
"Ninth on the list of 19 behaviors warranting expulsion and referral to court is possession or use of any dangerous instrument which may be used to inflict bodily harm, including knives."

Hmm.. one wonders how math and science classes are conducted at this school, since students probably aren't allowed to carry or use "potentially dangerous" objects like scalpels, compasses, pencils, pens, etc., etc..

As for this particular case, it cannot realistically be called anything but ridiculous.
 
It is a sad, dark day, when people agree, en masse, to allow codes and policies to replace judgement and reason.

Why is it considered an ugly tragedy when a lynch mob forms, but an exhibition of community when a School Board creates a code of conduct like those referred to in this issue? Personally, I don't see much difference, apart from the immediacy of the rights violations.

You know, we USED to have a pretty good little country, here. Tolerance (comparatively). Common Sense (to a point, at least). It wasn't perfect, by any stretch of the imagination. Don't get me wrong. It sure needed work. But at least folks were trying. Everybody working together to make things better. Folks coming up with ideas to help make life easier or safer or just more fun. Somewhere, it's all turned to greed and stupidity and political correctness. Legislation and litigation have replaced actually solving problems. Words have long since replaced action as the measure of things, whether they be men, tools, or wars. No wonder the Statue of Liberty has tearstains on her face.

All I know is, my son will be brought up using, appreciating, and (hopefully) making tools, knives, and guns. And the day he is expelled from school for it, will be the day that I stop paying taxes, voting, and waving to my neighbours.

More than 'nuff said.


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Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy, and good with ketchup...
 
[insert string of biologically improbable profanity here]

The automobile itself is a "dangerous instrument which may be used to inflict bodily harm." Certainly more so than a broken axe!

So are everybody's hands and feet. In California we just had a 19 year old killed by two 17 year old star athletes at their high school. Argument over a girl. The two of them knocked the one down and kicked him repeatedly in the head. He went home, took a nap, woke up with a splitting headache, and died in the hospital.

[insert string of blasphemous profanity here]

If a school wants to prohibit students from posessing in the school what they may lawfully posess outside, they should at least allow you to check the object at the entrance, or leave it locked in the trunk of the car.

And if you're having a heated argument with somebody, of any age, whether or not there's a school in sight, and you see him open up the trunk of his car, tell him you're sorry and leave.


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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
 
I will be glad when the day comes that the politicians figure out that the criminals do not obey the laws and that actions are illeagle, not objects. They just can't figure out that the behavior is what is considered against the law. Why make the rest of us crooks because of our possessions? No brains to make no decisions, so no reprocussions and no responsibility.
I guess we should make our lawmakers be responsibility for their behavior as well as requiring it for our young.
It is amazing that more people aren't paranoid about LEO's when you stop to consider that almost all of us are breaking some law, somewhere, at sometime. Lord forbid we have a flat next to a school on the way to the shooting range or on a trip to a exotic hunting trip that we have been saving for years for.
Thank God for the country settings where LEO's don't enforce all the idiot laws.


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Ray Kirk
http://www.tah-usa.net/raker
 
As I said in a post I began on this topic at TFL, how long till one of you gets a call from his boss to step into the office.

Seems they were "tipped off" (by one of your friendly commrade..um, co-workers) that you might have weapons locked in your car, which is parked on company property, didn't you know ? And the corporate policy on weapons in the workplace is very specific, haven't you read ? Boy oh boy what do we have here ... the "Club" ?!?! Self-explanatory what that's intended for, eh ? Wow ... sharpened screwdrivers, longer than 4" in length, a knife in the passenger compartment...would you mind opening that locked case please. Is that a range bag, for some leisure time after work ... you are now the next posterboy for HCI.
 
Zero Tolerance = Zero Common Sense

The truth within a Zero Tolerance policy is simply this:

An Administrative group who is too afraid, too lazy, or just too stupid to come up with policies that are based on common sense and that don't cause as much harm as they do good.

They think that Zero Tolerance is simple, and in theory it is, so they like it. This Zero business relieves them of actual decision making beyond the point of making up the rules in the first place.
In other words... if they make these moronic Zero Tolerance rules they DONT have to deal with it any longer.... they simply get to dole out punishments from then on.

I don't think that ANYONE who participates in the creation of a Zero Tolerance Policy should have ANYTHING to do with the guidance, education, or future of children.

The worst thing is... We are now teaching children by example that this is a good way to promote and enforce public safety... So the problem will only compound itself in the future

[This message has been edited by Dashunde (edited 05-24-2000).]
 
I just got done sending an e-mail of complaint to the superintendent. Hope you all do the same. I recommend making it brief and civil.
As I wrote in my letter to her, zero-tolerance guidelines - much like the inflexible minimum sentencing guidelines pushed by right-wingers in state capitols everywhere - are simply shields for gutless bureaucrats to hide behind while avoiding making any real decisions.
MN
 
I wonder where "Blatantly ignoring what the Principal, Teacher, or flunky school rent-a-cop says and driving your car off school property and being truant" (without opening the car) falls in the Code of Conduct list. Seems the student could have just told everyone to ****-off, I'm having a bad day, left, and saved himself and our justice system some time and money. Or maybe not. I guess it depends on where the above act falls.
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iktomi

[This message has been edited by rockspyder (edited 05-24-2000).]
 
Georgia has a "safe school zone" law. I do not have the code section here but will try to find it. It basically says that baseball bats, golf clubs, field hockey sticks, broom and mops, etc are BANNED from school grounds and the person how has one of them in their possesion can be expelled, jailed, etc. as a FELONY. Broom and mop handles can be used as weapons.
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Just as a sharpened pencil, ink pen, rolled up mag or newspaper, etc adnausium.
What we need is an end to the "feel good" laws and a return to common sense.

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Dwight

It's a fine line between "a hobby" and "mental illness".
 
Yeah, their custodial staff must not get much done either..

That piece of legislation sounds silly, was it some kind of feel-good knee-jerk reaction to the recent spate of school shootings? (Like those kids were going to go, "Well, we were gonna do the whole mass shooting thing, but then we remembered that it's illegal to take 'weapons' onto school property. Oh, how we have been thwarted."???) These are the same kind of people who, if some kid stabbed another kid in the neck with a pencil, would ignore the fact that the kid obviously had "issues", give everyone felt-tipped markers, and declare the problem solved...

(Or have they done that already?)

Worse yet, with policies like this, you end up with a whole bunch of kids who go into society with the same sort of attitude towards knives as a bunch of my English friends do -- namely, that people who carry knives are bad people. Folks with that attitude are more likely to be more accepting towards stricter knife laws for everyone, and.. well.. it's scary. Take a look at the knife laws in the U.K. and you'll see what I mean.

Sorry for the rant, this just really annoys me. I am SO glad I'm no longer in high school...!
 
Perhaps AKTI people should be talking to ACLU people on the subject of Strict Enforcement and running schools like light-security prisons.


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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
 
I would love to see the students band together and demand that the staff have to follow the same rules.

How many of those self-righteous morons have property with them that would violate the zero-tolerance idea?

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"Truly superior bushmen are those who use their superior judgment to avoid those situations where they might have to use their superior skills."
 
I think that most have missed the point of this type of asinine behavior on the part of school systems. Item one; If they admit that it's the fault of the individual and not the metal/wood/stone/glass/etc. they then have to admit that the entire socialistic experment with the judicial system was 100% wrong. Item two; If they are forthcoming with any type of common sense solutions they will be shunned by their fellow Professional Administrators. Item three; No dyed in the wool ultra-liberal is ever going to admit (in this lifetime at least) that any of his ideas or actions are at fault.
There is no way to reason with a militant socialist, he is a ledgend in his own mind. The best we can do is replace the school boards that hire these people. If a fool gets hired once that could be a mistake, but if he gets hired again then its obvious. Fools hire fools!!!!

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old pete
 
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