Another electrical snaffu .

K

Kevin the grey

Joined
Aug 26, 2005
Messages
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My Landlord has a new arrangement with me . His boys do the electrical work and I go in and repair the damage they did . This time however I think they blew one of the lines coming in from the transformer . That I won,t touch . The bowl of spaghetti they installed in the panel shorted out a neutral wire and not only energised the box they also somehow blew out one of the 110 lines coming in from hydro . How they did this without blowing the main fuse is a mystery to me . It would have been a lot better if they had as Hydro takes a dim view of amateurs messing with their equipment .

I cleaned up the panel and found their main mistake in there . I also found three grounds on three circuits in the house . I,m pretty sure they mixed up their hot wires and neutrals . That might give me a ground reading . When I go back I am going to test for continuity between hots and neutrals .

They also didn,t install box connectors in the device boxes that are just floating in the wall . The only thing holding them onto the wall is the face plate . They also have the clothes dryer running off the same breaker as the stove .

I wish I could fix the main line coming in . I hope they just blew a breaker between the house and the transformer . If anyone can see something I,m missing let me know .
 
Dave thats not my place . Its another rental unit of my landlord . Just to tell you my place was no better when I moved in . The dufus who did the wiring there used the ground wire as a hot to give himself two circuits with three wires . Then he put 240 volts through the plugs and blew my sony trinitron and V:C:R: . He then tried to say the 240 volts was there all the time .

Bottom line ? I got a new T:V: and V:C:R: out of the deal and the landlord got a new electrician .
 
First, call your landlord and let him know.

You are astute to realize that there are places a panel (earth) grounds and it is different than the neutral.

I can only tell you about what we have here, but it sounds similar. It sounds like you have both 240v and 120v. Is that correct? (could be 220v and 110v, 230v and 115v, all the same)

You usually have three wires, or "legs" coming from the street. Two are "hot" and have 120v, coded red and black. The third is coded white and is the neutral. You should also have an earth ground attached to a wire and metal stake driven into the ground near your meter/incoming service.

One "hot leg" (another reason Anne won't ask for electrical parts) and a neutral make 120v. Two "hot legs" and a neutral make 240v. (I am sure that I will catch some flak over this terminology!)

If two hot wires, say the usual black and white are incorrectly hooked up, you will get 240v at your outlet, which is bad for a 120v appliance!

In the USA there is no breaker between your incoming service to the meter. There may be a breaker or disconnect on your side of the meter, however. In older wiring systems there is only a main breaker in your inside panel.

Though you sound like you know some about electricity, I would strongly suggest you get a professional to look at it. The unplesant thing about electricity is that it can turn a harmless looking piece of metal into something that can hurt you.
 
Bill while I mostly do fire alarms I am considered an apprentice Electrician .
You have confirmed what I suspected as to their being no breaker between the transformer and the residence . The only thing hopeful in this is that if the landlord had blown a phase of the transformer then other homes would have been affected .


We have two a-phasic sources of 120 volts to give us 240 volts .You are right in that it is time for the licenced pros to come in . The only thing I am doing is cleaning up the panel and find the grounds in the house .
The Electric company won,t service or resupply a home with faults in the wiring .

Its a win for me as The Landlord will simply reduce the rent which can be used as a downpayment on a house . Thanks Bill for clarifying the situation .
 
Jeez. Sounds like a war zone in there. Watcherass bro.
 
<snip> I cleaned up the panel and found their main mistake in there . I also found three grounds on three circuits in the house . I said:
What you have here is what we in the trade call "Home Cookin' " !! :jerkit:
Scary!!!

As you and others here have surmised, it's time to call in the pros, as in "licensed, qualified electricians". At the very least have them sort out the main circuit breaker panel and bring it into compliance with Canada's equivalent of the National Electrical Code. Once that's accomplished the landlord's kids will probably only be able to scare/hurt themselves and not endanger innocent tenants or burn the building.

From your description I'd guess that a connection on one leg of the service drop, service, or main feeder has opened up. This can happen for a number of reasons but most likely bacause of a "ground fault" on the affected phase. Since there is no over-current device on the load side of the supply transformer, the only way for a ground fault to clear is for the wiring or connectors to overheat to the point of melting and opening the circuit. (This is how most electrical fires start.)

In any case, keep everybody away from the electrical service equipment until the pros and the power company's people have OK'ed it. you might also want to suggest to your landlord that he hire you to do any future electrical repairs and have his kids take up plumbing, landscape work or cement finishing;) ;)
Click to expand...
 
One question for Gyr . I can see the residence circuit breakers not blowing due to a ground as some are less sensitive than others . I cannot see the main fuse not blowing with a ground in the panel bad enough to fry the main supply lines . The main fuses are in a seperate box and are electrically between the ground and the transformer . Can you think of any error that would lead to a complete breakdown of safety precautions such as this ?

Thanks guys I know I can always count on you to watch out for my best interests .

Landlords find it shocking how much a good electrician costs . Its still a lot better than for a resident to find it shocking .
 
Kevin,

Forgot to mention that if one of your legs coming in is not working, then half your circuits would be dead or with extremely low voltage.

You might use a voltmeter to see before you damage anything.

A big problem can exist also if the earth ground wire becomes detached. This can cause strange feedbacks and thoughout your house. Turn on the TV and a light begins to work. This can also cause major problems with electronics and appliances.

If you experience this, unplug everything and shut down at the breaker panel and call an electrican quick!

The power company (Hydro?) will probably come out and check the transformer. They will do this quickly because they have liability in your home if something is damaged and it can be traced to a transformer failure.
 
Kevin the grey said:
One question for Gyr . I can see the residence circuit breakers not blowing due to a ground as some are less sensitive than others . I cannot see the main fuse not blowing with a ground in the panel bad enough to fry the main supply lines . The main fuses are in a seperate box and are electrically between the ground and the transformer . Can you think of any error that would lead to a complete breakdown of safety precautions such as this ?

Thanks guys I know I can always count on you to watch out for my best interests .

Landlords find it shocking how much a good electrician costs . Its still a lot better than for a resident to find it shocking .
Click to expand...

Kevin

Not being there or even having a photo, I can only speculate as to the cause of the condition you outline. Also please keep in mind that codes and customary wiring methods and practices vary greatly from place to place.
So any speculation I might offer must necessarily be based only on the characteristics of single phase, 110/240 volt 3-wire systems. In other words, the following is offered soley for your personal edification and is NOT to be used as, or construed to be, guidance or instruction in the installation repair, or modification of any electrical systems.
(D*mn tort lawyer/parasites!!!)
Re the situation you describe, the following possibilities present themselves:
1- Not all ground faults (the fault you describe as a "ground in the panel") are of equal magntudeThe ground fault may have been sufficient to melt insulation/wiring of the main feeder over time but never have achieved the magnitude necessary to "open" the main fuses.
2-The rating of the main fuses is excessive for the wiring they are installed to protect. Since theses fuses are probably rated in execss of 100 amps they may be of the industrial or "slo-blo" type designed to withstand momentary overloads. If the ground fault was not continuous but intermittent, damage to the main feeder wiring could occur without the fuses opening.
3-The main fuses may have been altered to prevent their opening under any circumstances. (Sort of a penny-behind-the-fuse thing) I have seen landlords and their minions do this when they were to cheap or lazy to effect a proper repair.
There are other circumstances where the condition you describe could occur but IMHO these are the most likely. Please keep in mind that I could be wrong! YMMV


"Landlords find it shocking how much a good electrician costs ."
They'll find it much more shocking when they see what liability insurance costs after a fire damage or wrongful death claim!!!!!!
 
Kevin's life is usually full of adventure, but this is not the right kind.




munk
 
Gyr ? I give you top rating for problem solving . Considering the limited input you had to work with those responses were top notch .

I am leaning towards the ground/overheating of the wire over time theory .
Even if the system was working properly(no grounds) it was sadly overloaded .
G:F:C:I receptacles were installed incorrectly . Not dangerous just not functional .(which is dangerous ).

The only plus in all this is it is profitable to me . The landlord forked over the money with a look of gratitude on his face .

It is perfect in timing as I have a great vacation planned . A little bit of work and then four days of swimming , hiking and traditional archery . Much more the kind of adventure I prefer .
 
Kevin the grey said:
Gyr ? I give you top rating for problem solving . Considering the limited input you had to work with those responses were top notch .

I am leaning towards the ground/overheating of the wire over time theory .
Even if the system was working properly(no grounds) it was sadly overloaded .
G:F:C:I receptacles were installed incorrectly . Not dangerous just not functional .(which is dangerous ).

The only plus in all this is it is profitable to me . The landlord forked over the money with a look of gratitude on his face .

It is perfect in timing as I have a great vacation planned . A little bit of work and then four days of swimming , hiking and traditional archery . Much more the kind of adventure I prefer .
Click to expand...

Kevin

Thanks for the kind words.

I'm glad that this situation has turned into a windfall for you. Just be very,
VERY careful if you attempt any repairs on this mess. Don't make ANY assumptions about any part of this system. Test EVERYTHING before you touch it and try to de-energize the whole occupancy at the mains before working on anything. That thing you mentioned earlier about the two circuits with the ground used as a neutral return really scares me.
Under these conditions even though a branch circuit has been de-energized it's quite possible that its neutral wire (or ground) could be carrying 110 volts.
I don't have to tell you what could happen if you're grounded and contact this supposedly neutral wire.:eek:

Wachurass!!!!!!!

Forumites are NOT expendable!!!!!!:D

Good luck with whatever you try.:thumbup: And enjoy the trip!!:)


Gyr
 
There is a reason why they call Electricians Sparky . It can be derogatory or just factual . I have seen accidents on construction sites that would boggle the mind .

That having been said I will take extra precautions . Bill I will take your advice and check the main ground . That is the one thing I stress to anyone I talk to . The very first wire you connect is the ground . The last wire you connect is the hot .

Gyr , when I read 240 volts between hot and ground I couldn,t understand it . I kept on thinking it was the meter . I then tested the ground to earth ground . Voila 120 volts . A bare wire inside the box with 120 going through it . Aside from that the result of this was a building with no ground wire .
That is behind me and was a good lesson in deductive reasoning .

Electricity can be a bitc# . She is ready for anyone and can give you the last ride of your life . I am still more concerned with crossing a city street than I am in a panel . I turn on all breakers with my thumb . I never stand in front when I energise anything . If it can be at all helped I only have one hand at a time inside the panel .

I will treat all wires and all boxes as if energised at all times .
 
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