Another John Primble

[sceva]

OK members, help me out here with opinions or info if you know. If someone has older catalogs than the 1950 and 1970 I have copies of perhaps you can check for the pattern No.

I got this off ebay after watching for a long time. I was suspicious as it was not in my catalog(s) , the handle material and markings and when I asked the seller about it and he was also somewhat suspicious. I ended up getting it for a low price, buying it as a nice old equal end penknife.

What it is supposed to be. A John Primble Belknap Hdw & Mfg Co equal end penknife, pattern 5753, 2 3/4" closed with tip bolsters, milled liners and what looks to be real stag handle scales.
It is very much like a pattern 5763 Except for the number, star position, handle material, bar shield and no swedge on the spear blade

The questions:
I cannot find a listing for a 5753 pattern John Primble,
There is a star with the pattern number however the star is over the number not below it as expected.
The tang Stamp appears uneven and when blown up you can see over-runs and start / stops in the markings. It appears to have been re-cut rather than stamped
The Pattern No stamp looks a little wonky to me also.
The main blade does not have a swedge or a long pull like I would have expected ( like most of the JP pen knives)
Stag scales?? I have not seen a JP with genuine stag.
I cannot believe someone would go to the trouble of faking a John Primble, they are nice, often Boker made, knives but don'y carry the collectibility of the old Case, Remington etc.

The maybe's:

Someone had a nice old John Primble that the markings were wearing off and decided to try to re-cut them with a scribe or something.
Misread the number when remarking and placed the star wrong.
The original blade was damaged and replaced with this one and badly marked?
It may have been re-handled

Or maybe it is an older pattern that later became the 5763? Or maybe it is something else altogether and spuriously marked.
I did ask member Primble about it but he was also in the dark about it.


Sometimes you just wish a knife could talk. UPDATE: This is a legit John Primble - See posts 16 on.

 

[sceva]

Tried to enlarge / enhance detail

Opinions on the marking
faked?
enhanced with a sharp scribe, awl or other tool? I am leaning toward this but it's only speculation or maybe wishful thinking.
Just a marking variation - specially the star over the number instead of below.
one of Jim Parkers pantograph marked old factory finds?

I do not actually have the knife in hand yet.

Did Belknap ever hade a pattern 5753 John Primble? Did they ever use stag on their small knives? I only have two catalog copies to check.

 

[sceva]

OK - getting interesting

Found some catalog pages from 1937 and scanned a few. There was a 5753 pattern but it is an easy opening cigar with 2 blades on the same end. so this knife is NOT a 5753 unless pattern numbers changed which I doubt.

There are also some that are very close to the knife in post one except a little too long or the wrong secondary blade. I also see that the knives in this catalog have small nail nicks and no swages. I do note that instead of cow bone, the definition of stag in this earlier catalog is genuine made from finest quality stag horns. I also see that the knives in this catalog have small nail nicks and no swages.

It may just be that this IS a john Primble but earlier than the Boker made ones ( India steel works?? ) that had their markings partially worn and someone tried to remark based on what they thought it SHOULD say instead of what it did say. Wild speculation I know and it may just be an old knife that someone was playing around with. No matter, I got it at a very low price based on all the suspicions about it but it does appear to be a nicely made knife with things like the milled liners that point to a better made one.

I can't wait to get it in hand and start cleaning it up and get it ready to use.

 

[mightyzaa]

the star, from what i have always read, indicates it is made by Boker.

 

[sceva]

the star, from what i have always read, indicates it is made by Boker.

That is true. The issue with this knife is that the star is above the number while in all the others I have seen it is below the number. Actually if it wasn't for the markings being a little wonky I wouldn't question this knife. I may change my mind once I have it in hand but from the photos it just looks like a well made little guy. With premium touches like the milled liners I don't think it was a cheapie and while it may have been messed with the wear overall is consistent. Was it always a John Primble, I don't know but I can't help thinking if I could access more catalogs from either 1939 - 1941 or late 1940's I may just find it. I see a lot that are close, bar shield and all but 3/8" too long. I am still leaning toward a variation of the 5763 series. perhaps they used a bar shield with real stag??? A 5745 is very close except for the length ( 3 1/8 instead of 2 3/4) The markings" I just don't know as it seems a lot of trouble to go thru for a John Primble. If it was a highly collectible brand maybe.

 

[sceva]

So close but no cigar. Still waiting for delivery. It finally got to Illinois from Texas yesterday and was at a USPS dist. center less than 15 miles from me expected delivery March 3. That usually means delivery next day; not this time though as today is is in St. Louis, Mo so if I'm lucky it will be here is two more days. Speaking of USPS, a lot of our mail is getting hung up in Indianapolis lately. it gats there and sits from several days to a week or more.

Update: March 8, It's been two more days and it's in transit again; where to who knows but with luck its coming back to the local PO.

March 10; it's been "In Transit" for three days in a row now. I wonder where it is going. I did a whare's my package thru the USPS and they marked the search resolved with a "It is in route and as it was officially in their possession on Mar 2 they do not consider it late as 1st class can take up to 10 days to be delivered.

March 12: Still in Transit Translated I think that means it's somewhere in their system but the USPS doesn't know exactly where it actually is because no one has scanned it. Officially 10 days now so if it hasn't moved in another day or so I will initiate another where is my package inquiry.

March 14: Still in transit ( I think they lost it ) I initiated another inquiry since they closed the last one saying it's in route. In transit for over a week seems a bit much.


Once it is here I'll get some good photos.

 

[sceva]

Doesn't look like I'll get this one. The USPS managed to get it from Texas to Illinois in 5 days. It supposedly arrives at the USPS distribution center less than 15 miles from me which usually means delivery next day. Instead it then went to Missouri for a day and has shown in transit up to the 10th then no more updates. Local PO is emailing the Missouri location it was last at to ask them to check up on it but doesn't seem to hold much hope. Suggest the sender file a claim after the 19th. If it ever shows up I'll re-open this and post good photos.

March 20; Never heard back from the seller so I don't think he is filing a claim. It was inexpensive enough that I left it up to them so it is what it is.

Just received a refund.

I really wish it had arrived though as I wanted to take a good look in person. I still believe it was a good chance it was a legit John Primble knife, probably a 5763 variation and I think pre 1950, that someone in it's past tried to freshen up the markings with a graver or sharp awl. It would have made a nice little using knife.

 

[Hickory n steel]

That's a shame.
I'm currently waiting on a package that the USPS in Missouri has had in their possession for 5 days.
They received it 5 days ago, it's expected to arrive today, and if they weren't just letting it sit it would have probably just arrived at my local post office abou 7:00 this morning.
I've had a few issues over the years, but generally pretty good luck.
I have a great local post office in my dinky little one horse town, and a fairly efficient distribution center about an hour away.


I hope you receive your knife, money can always be refunded ( if the seller is willing) but it sure sucks having to wait all this time for something only to not get it.

 

[sceva]

The package suddenly was under a search investigation then started moving again at the end of March after the seller filed a claim with USPS. Currently back at the Distribution center less than 15 miles from me. We'll see if it now gets to the local PO and out for delivery; should know tomorrow.

 

[Oldy]

I hope you get it because I have been following this knife murder mystery, the murder pertaining to blades being taken or such.

 

[The Fort]

The package suddenly was under a search investigation then started moving again at the end of March after the seller filed a claim with USPS. Currently back at the Distribution center less than 15 miles from me. We'll see if it now gets to the local PO and out for delivery; should know tomorrow.

Same exact thing happened to me. No movement for a couple of weeks, then the seller filed a claim with USPS and it began moving again. Mine arrived today. Good luck with yours. I’ll be looking forward to hearing the outcome, and hopefully seeing your new knife. Lance

 

[sceva]

The package suddenly was under a search investigation then started moving again at the end of March after the seller filed a claim with USPS. Currently back at the Distribution center less than 15 miles from me. We'll see if it now gets to the local PO and out for delivery; should know tomorrow.

And it's been stuck there again ever since. Normally it is at the local PO the day after it shows up at the Fox Valley Dist Center. This time it's back to the old "In Transit to the next location-arriving late" which is their catch all for we don't know where it is until when/if it gets scanned again. At least it didn't go back to St. Louis again - YET!

You know, we complain about the USPS but the vast majority of the mail arrives in a timely manner for a reasonable cost. But every once in a while they fail fantastically. It make me wonder if there is a issue with the label / address but it does get thru all the steps I would expect until it gets to Fox valley, then off the rails.

I will keep you informed.

 

[The Fort]

And it's been stuck there again ever since. Normally it is at the local PO the day after it shows up at the Fox Valley Dist Center. This time it's back to the old "In Transit to the next location-arriving late" which is their catch all for we don't know where it is until when/if it gets scanned again. At least it didn't go back to St. Louis again - YET!

You know, we complain about the USPS but the vast majority of the mail arrives in a timely manner for a reasonable cost. But every once in a while they fail fantastically. It make me wonder if there is a issue with the label / address but it does get thru all the steps I would expect until it gets to Fox valley, then off the rails.

I will keep you informed.

I have another in Fox Valley today. We’ll see which way it goes next……….

 

[sceva]

Saturday April 5

NOPE: After Fox Valley it was In Transit for two days and today it is back in Chicago again. Who the devil knows where they will take it next.

In Texas Feb 28, to Chicago to Local Dist center Mar 5 then to St Louis, lost, found, on to Chicago, to Local dist Center, now back to Chicago.

Evidently the label and bar codes are good enough to get it close to me then it falls off the rails. I wonder where the scanners at the local dist center are telling them to send it?


Sunday April 6

Back at Fox Valley - again

 

[sceva]

Well, it looks like it may be stuck again Was at Fox valley ( for the third time) on April 5 and has been "In Transit" ever since.
With most mail once it gets to Fox valley it moves to the Plainfield, IL Post Office for delivery the next weekday. I don't know if I will ever get it but it's kind of fun watching it go everywhere but where it should.

I messaged on the USPS facebook site and someone is looking into why it looping between Chicago and Fox Valley. They are going to try to get it physically grabbed and moved forward.

 

[sceva]

It actually made it. Delivered today

Photos below and I am stumped on this one. Size, tip bolsters etc all point to a 5763 pattern Pen knife but the blade has a small nail nick instead of the long one I would expect. I can not explain the Star 5753 marking or the star above instead of below as the 5753 is an easy open 2 blade jack with both blades at the same end and is 3/8" longer at 3 1/8" I thought a 5753 blade in a 5763 frame but again, the 5753 was a longer knife. As best I can determine the John Primble markings are legit. When received it was very dirty and gritty and the bolster to scale fit was not the best. After cleaning it up some, adjusting the kick and oiling it it opens and closes nicely and has a decent snap. The scales are pretty nice stag which I have not found cataloged by Belknap. I suspect it may have been re-handled at some point in it's life but it looks to have been together for a long time. Could it have had blade replacement then also? Who knows. I do not think that if this was put together or re-handled to deceive someone; instead if it was done it was to make it usable after some damage. That is only an opinion though.

Either way, it is a dandy little pen knife. Any other opinions are welcome.

Please excuse the white stuff, I hand rubbed it with Autosol ( like simichrome) and see I did not get it all off.












here is a 5763 to compare

 

[lambertiana]

It actually made it. Delivered today

Photos below and I am stumped on this one. Size, tip bolsters etc all point to a 5763 pattern Pen knife but the blade has a small nail nick instead of the long one I would expect. I can not explain the Star 5753 marking or the star above instead of below as the 5753 is an easy open 2 blade jack with both blades at the same end and is 1/4" longer at 3 1/8" As best I can determine the John Primble markings are legit. When received it was very dirty and gritty and the bolster to scale fit was not the best. After cleaning it up some, adjusting the kick and oiling it it opens and closes nicely and has a decent snap. The scales are pretty nice stag which I have not found cataloged by Belknap. I suspect it may have been re-handled at some point in it's life but it looks to have been together for a long time. Could it have had blade replacement then also? Who knows. I do not think that if this was put together or re-handled to deceive someone; instead if it was done it was to make it usable after some damage. That is only an opinion though.

Either way, it is a dandy little pen knife. Any other opinions are welcome.












here is a 5763 to compare

The only comment I have is that it looks unusual with the way the pins were domed and spun, with the circle of surrounding stag included. Was this common?

 

[sceva]

The only comment I have is that it looks unusual with the way the pins were domed and spun, with the circle of surrounding stag included. Was this common?

That is what makes me think it may have has scale replacement in the past but the wear is pretty even over all. I have never seen an older stag scaled Primble so I do not know if that is common / normal. Although; the more I look it over the more I think it has never been apart. It's an enigma; A 5763 pattern, marked 5753 and the star in the wrong place, a small nail nick and real stag.

I did do a search and found photos of some John Primble 3000 patterns that do have the marks around the pin heads. The 3000 pattern looks almost like this one EXCEPT they have a more modern looking pen blade and are 3 1/8" - 3 1/4" closed.

I am hoping member Primble will chime in with his expertise and knowledge.

 

[sceva]

Better Photos.

I honestly do not think this knife has been fooled with. If it does it was a long time ago. The John Primble marking looks correct although I cannot figure the 5753 Star marking. Perhaps Boker grabbed the wrong blade when assembling. I still think this is a version of the 5763 pattern, same closed length, tip bolsters. The main blade is no longer full but not badly worn for a 70 year old or so knife. I think this one may be from early in the Belknap Hdw & Mfg era, It would be nice to see some scans of the John Primble pages of a Berlknap catalog from earlier than 1950.

Member Primble looked at the photos ( I was hoping he would) and his opinion, which I value, it that it is all original and a nice one.

Is there anyone who thinks this is not stag and / or has been messed with. I cleaned it a minimum to get the active rust off and touch up the tip bolsters. Been cutting up an apple to get the patina better.