Another NYC Arrest

T

tom19176

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I am a former NYC LEO and now manage malls and have off duty NYPD work for me in the malls. That backround explained, one of my off duties works in the warrant division ( the guys who come get you when you miss a court date). He had to bring in a woman who works in Manhattan setting up stages for Broadway Plays, because she was arrested for having a Kershaw Blur along with her tools when she entered the subway. She was held for almost two days, wrongly charged with a felony instead of the misdameanor. When the ADA saw her, he realized she was mis charged with a felony and lowered it, then offered her a plea deal to a violation ( which would not have given her a criminal record), but she had to plead guilty. She refused to do so, based on the fact that she bought the knife at Walmart offered openly for sale to anyone, and she understood that it was a spring assisted knife and not a switchblade. She was released and told she would be mailed a court date, but she was never notified of when to appear in court and a warrant was issued for her arrest. My guy had to pick her up at her house at 2 AM. She was brought back to jail and released with a new court date. I don't know her, but I feel deeply for her in this situation. She was enetring the subway with a bag of tools and the Blur clipped to her pocket. The officer must have really been "looking" to arrest her as the exposed knife law does not prevent the carry of a exposed knife for a worker to and from their job and while working. He did upon seeing the knife openly displayed have the right to see if it was a leagl knife, but in my day he would have been laughed out of the sation house for a BS arrest like this. My guys who work with me state they see it all the time....:barf::thumbdn:
 
That is not good news. Hopefully, the judge will throw this out since she was using it for work.

I can't believe what is happening here. While ordering my new Remington 870 for hunting season, I was speaking to the gun dealer (a retired LEO) about all of the attention that knives are getting. He stated that he knows a few Court Officers who claim that they never see knife only arrests. In fact, the only time knives are brought into question is when the individual is arrested for another crime (i.e drug related).

My daughter who is in high school tells me that LEOs find SAKs in back-packs all the time and as long as the student is not on school property (and headed home in the afternoon) and over 16, just give them the knife back and tell them not to bring it to school. Perhaps knives are treated a bit differently in the borough I am in. But this is scary stuff.

As a member of Knife Rights, I hope things go well with the current situation. It would be great for the folks of NYC to get together and have a massive letter writing campaign the way we did with Customs. Perhaps it would do some good.

:confused:
 
He did upon seeing the knife openly displayed have the right to see if it was a leagl knife, but in my day he would have been laughed out of the sation house for a BS arrest like this
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BS arrest is spot on.

I feel bad for this woman too , what a breach of justice...
 
She ought to be able to counter sue the city! That would put an end to the bs pretty quick! Pitty when there is not a way to hold those abusing their powers accountable.
 
Being well into middleage,I often feel older when I see the number of young NYPD officers. I suspect most were raised and schooled that knives and the carriage thereof are bad. Growing up in the 60s and 70s all the cops I knew and encountered growing up in NYC were older,streetwise tough men. Most were also military veterans. Unless you were a real dirtbag,the worst you'd suffer for carrying a blade was usually confiscation and/or an asswhopping. But I know a few guys that suffered that,but didn't end up with a rapsheet. Wouldn't happen today. Those old school cops walked beats,alone without a radio. They were feared for their street fighting nastiness. Especially the blackjack in that little pant leg pocket. I'd bet the cop that collared that lady on the subway would crap himself if he had to throw down with someone for real,no radio,no backup. I'm not blaming him. Its happened to the rest of society. He is a product of what we have overwhelmingly become.
 
I am glad to see most of you feel the same as I did about this one. I truly hope that she does fight this and has the charges dropped or the next best thing in NYC a ACD (Aquital Comtemplating Dismissal) in which if she did not get in trouble for 6 months all the records of this incident would be removed from her file. The sad thing is in NYC the officer had to first feel she was breaking the law, a sgt had to approve the arrest ( including the mis labelling it a felony), and the ADA had to feel there were merits enough to move the case forward, all for a woman that carried a openly sold knife she bought in Walmart as a part of her tools...No matter how this ends, she has been in hand cuffs twice now, been in a holding cell twice, and all because the law was miss interperted by the NYPD.....
 
charlesbjr said:
That is not good news. Hopefully, the judge will throw this out since she was using it for work.

I can't believe what is happening here. While ordering my new Remington 870 for hunting season, I was speaking to the gun dealer (a retired LEO) about all of the attention that knives are getting. He stated that he knows a few Court Officers who claim that they never see knife only arrests. In fact, the only time knives are brought into question is when the individual is arrested for another crime (i.e drug related).

My daughter who is in high school tells me that LEOs find SAKs in back-packs all the time and as long as the student is not on school property (and headed home in the afternoon) and over 16, just give them the knife back and tell them not to bring it to school. Perhaps knives are treated a bit differently in the borough I am in. But this is scary stuff.

As a member of Knife Rights, I hope things go well with the current situation. It would be great for the folks of NYC to get together and have a massive letter writing campaign the way we did with Customs. Perhaps it would do some good.

:confused:
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Congratulations on your new Remington 870. I own one myself. Great firearm. Goes bang every time you pull the trigger. OK, back to knives. Why are LEOs searching students' backpacks if they are not on school property? Seems like a violation of constitutional rights. Yes, school resource officers can search students' bags and make them enter the school through a metal detector, but then again students should know not to carry the blade on school property. If the student is off school property, the school resource officer has no right to conduct random searches.
 
NYC today subscribes to the "Broken Windows Theory". They think ignoring minor disorders is likely to encourage more minor disorders and major ones. They think letting people carry pocket knives visibly will encourage others to do the same, and eventually encourage handgun carry due to one-upmanship. So, they crackdown hard on minor offenses.

http://www.economist.com/sciencetechnology/displayStory.cfm?story_id=12630201

The theory has merit, but I do think it's being taken too far.
 
chris in mo said:
She ought to be able to counter sue the city! That would put an end to the bs pretty quick! Pitty when there is not a way to hold those abusing their powers accountable.
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A couple of points-
  1. A countersuit is a legal retort in civil matters - the CPW (or even the lesser violation) would be adjudicated in criminal court
  2. This is a valid arrest- the Kershaw in question is clearly a "gravity knife" under the NYSPL and is illegal to possess.

Getting an FTA (she's charged with CPW 4th. A Misd. now) is putting a needless 2d A misdomeanor on her docket (215.55 NYSPL, FTA 3d). She may be able to have it explained away, but still, this is causing unecessary extra burden (and doesn't help her look good). The reality is, all 5 counties' criminal dockets are available online. By docket number or defendant name, you can find out all the next court date is (and a lot of other pertinent information). It's a very easy tool to navigate. Even had she missed the court date, she could have prevented the additional charge by presenting herself voluntarily within 30 days of the missed court date. I hate to soud harsh, BUT there is responsibilities and obligations that she has to meet when she's afforded the privelege of bail.

As much as I dislike the law, her case is pretty cut and dry; unless she gets (the New York quivelant of a) nolee, AR, or deferred adjudication/expungment, she will only 'get off' if she goes to trial and manages to get lucky (jury nullification- not likely). The search is legit, and there is no real question about the intrinsic charecteristics of the knife either. It would have been in her best interest (time, money, criminal record-wise) to take the violation plea; even though she didn't meet the elements of that particular crime.
 
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mp510, I normally see things eye to eye with you, but I have to argue on the knife being illegal in and of it self. I have asked the NYPD legal division a few times for their view on Assisted opening knives, and they feel most can be flicked open and therefore a gravity knife, and it can be articluated that they are a dangerous knife since to many they appear as something that was designed as a weapon due to it's opening speed, but they stated it is not a clearly illegal knife in and of itself. All that logic aside, The State AG has not gone after sellers of them nor has any DA's offices within the state when they have been offered for general sale to the public. A mail order/internet sales company called BUDK offers they for sale in NY when he restricts many other knives due to harsh legal action our former Governor had used on him when Patackie was the State AG. If the Kershaw blur can not be flicked open (most new ones can not be)and the person does not state the knife is carried as a weapon ( she maintained it was a tool along with her other tools), then it is not clearly a illegal knife. The officer that works for me stated the arrest details states the knife was a switchblade, which by NY definition it is not. Personally I have never seen a Misd case go to trial in NYC for this type of charge, but there are always a chance. The officer who works for me had told her to keep going to her court cases and not accept their plea offer and chances are she will be offered a ACD, which should be the best thing for her situation. It is distubing to me that the arresting officer wrongfully charged her with the Felony count when it required her to have a past conviction for that to come into play even if she was carrying a true switchblade. This arrest was clearly a numbers driven mee the quota one....
 
I beat a case once this way for carrying a Buck/Strider 880 on CSU Fresno (CA State Univ). It was legal but I was charged anyway. I think that once an arrest is made, the LE/DA will not reverse itself for fear of looking like they made a bad call.
 
tom19176 said:
mp510, I normally see things eye to eye with you, but I have to argue on the knife being illegal in and of it self. I have asked the NYPD legal division a few times for their view on Assisted opening knives, and they feel most can be flicked open and therefore a gravity knife, and it can be articluated that they are a dangerous knife since to many they appear as something that was designed as a weapon due to it's opening speed, but they stated it is not a clearly illegal knife in and of itself. All that logic aside, The State AG has not gone after sellers of them nor has any DA's offices within the state when they have been offered for general sale to the public. A mail order/internet sales company called BUDK offers they for sale in NY when he restricts many other knives due to harsh legal action our former Governor had used on him when Patackie was the State AG. If the Kershaw blur can not be flicked open (most new ones can not be)and the person does not state the knife is carried as a weapon ( she maintained it was a tool along with her other tools), then it is not clearly a illegal knife. The officer that works for me stated the arrest details states the knife was a switchblade, which by NY definition it is not. Personally I have never seen a Misd case go to trial in NYC for this type of charge, but there are always a chance. The officer who works for me had told her to keep going to her court cases and not accept their plea offer and chances are she will be offered a ACD, which should be the best thing for her situation. It is distubing to me that the arresting officer wrongfully charged her with the Felony count when it required her to have a past conviction for that to come into play even if she was carrying a true switchblade. This arrest was clearly a numbers driven mee the quota one....
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You're right tom, there is a number of disturbing facets of the case. The initial felony charge and the switchblade claim chief among them. I know with other wobblers (where albeit the distinction is less clear), they are often charged Felony and reduced. but then again, she has no priors, which is an essential element of the felony count, and that is something that could be verified quick enough. Considering those two facts, the officer may need things explained to him.

I searched Westlaw for way to long looking for (specifically) applicable case law and came up empty handed.

I am not a big AO fan. I don't have too many in my collection. I have Kershaws (although not a blur) and a Camillus. I can flick open both without a problem. If in fact the blur can't be then I'm in error there. Next time I have the oppertunity, I'll have to handle a Blur. That will be interesting indeed if they can resist flicking.

Regarding the sales issue- Just because something is sold doesn't make it legal. You know as well as I that there is no shortage of knives that meet the gravity knife description sold (or offered for sale) in/into New York every day. Still, it is interesting that BUDK wasn't told to stop shipping AOs into NY when they were told to stop shipping in the other illegal weapons.

The ACD is a little bit different than what we have in here in Connecticut. I should have read up on it a little more first. It seems very similar to the way our nolles are often utilized here though. You are right- chances are the case would probably be dismissed before trial. I hope that is what happened.

I have a very conservative/ hard line outlook. Not always the best for these sort of things.
 
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The thing about AO's is they have a strong bias to remain closed. I have never been able to gravity flick an AO.
 
mp510, now we're back eye to eye...lol...I have a few blurs that I use fishing and when new they could not be flicked open, but over the years they could be. Just as in cases gone by with butterfly knives in NY, when the arrest has been made calling the knife a gravity knife, all the case law I have read has overturned the charge stating it missed the locking requirement. Had the arrest been made for a dangerous knife in either of these, a butterfly or AO arrest, then the officer could easily articulate his belief that these knives were designed solely for use as a weapon, and in my mind have a more firm basis for the arrest ( although us knife guys may not like it). My main issue is the spirit of the law was clearly not enforced here, and this seemed to be a "I need to make my number arrest".
 
the arrest been made for a dangerous knife in either of these, a butterfly or AO arrest, then the officer could easily articulate his belief that these knives were designed solely for use as a weapon, and in my mind have a more firm basis for the arrest ( although us knife guys may not like it).
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There was an interesting appellate decision this year in New York County (Manhattan) in which the judge (Koenderman) essentially equated gravity knives with being dangerous knives, thus justifying their regulation. Judge Koenderman also noted an interesting relationship between gravity knives and switchblades. That case is People v. Fana, 23 Misc.3d 1114(A), 23 April 09. Fana was also charged a misdomeanor marijuana posession. The appeal focused on Fana's question of the Constitutionality of the CPW law- that it was overbroad and lacks any consideration of mens rea as it "includes commonly and innocently used utility tools and permits arbitrary law enforcement." The court rejected Fana's argument. In the Fana opinion, the court specifically found flaw with the rationale between available for purchase, possible/ probable/ intended use as a tool and criminality by potential misuse:
The fact that some knives which meet the statutory definition of a gravity knife are sold in local stores as “folding knives” which are designed and intended for use as tools does not render the statute unconstitutionally vague....The gravity knife's intended function as a tool did not then, and does not now, alter its obvious and inherently dangerous nature. The intended use or design of the knife by its manufacturer is not an element of the crime and is irrelevant to the issue of whether the knife is a gravity knife
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Connection between a gravity knife and a switchblade:
The characteristics of a gravity knife render it both easily concealed on the person and quickly deployed as a weapon. In this regard, the gravity knife is comparable to the switchblade knife
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(I believe that it is important to notice here that her Honor put a heavy empasis on the legislative history of switchblade criminalization).

The fact that some knives which meet the statutory definition of a gravity knife are sold in local stores as “folding knives” which are designed and intended for use as tools does not render the statute unconstitutionally vague. Indeed, when initially introduced during World War II, the gravity knife was intended for use by paratroopers as a tool for cutting their parachutes with one hand ( see Irizarry, 509 FSupp2d at 204). The gravity knife's intended function as a tool did not then, and does not now, alter its obvious and inherently dangerous nature. The intended use or design of the knife by its manufacturer is not an element of the crime and is irrelevant
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From the same excerpt examining the use (of what one could consider ture gravity knives), Koenderman suggesting that the speed in deployment is inherent to the justification in criminalizing them (to protect the public from dangerous implements--my paraphrasing), "and quickly deployed as a weapon".

The connection between tool and weapons; gravity knife and dangerous knife; etc... are becoming a lot more blurred. In case it wasn't clear, the court rejected Fana's motion. The fact that speed is being discussed at all is, to say the least, disturbing.
 
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