Another question from Dr.Bill :)

WILLIAM.M

WILLIAM.M

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ANOTHER QUESTION FROM DR.BILL :)

ON 9-20-10 I POSTED THIS QUESTION--PLEASE READ IT BEFORE ANSWERING THIS ONE
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=774830

SOME WOULD SPEND MORE $$ ON A SMALL KNIFE--SOME ON A LARGE--SOME 50/50

SOME THOUGHT IT WAS BETTER TO SPEND MORE ON THE BIG KNIFE TO INSURE IT WOULD NOT FAIL(OR INCREASE THE ODDS OF IT NOT FAILING)

THIS QUESTION CONCERNS HOW DO YOU DEFINE FAILURE IN A SMALL KNIFE??

BIG KNIFE FAILURE TO ME IS WHEN IT FAILS TO CHOP WELL,IS PAINFUL WHEN USED AS A CHOPPER,DOES NOT HOLD AN EDGE FOR LONG,ETC-AND IF IT BREAKS...

I'VE NEVER HAD A SMALL KNIFE FAIL AS I USUALLY NEVER TRY TO TAKE THEM EVEN CLOSE TO REACHING THE DESIGN LIMITS

HOW DO YOU DEFINE SMALL KNIFE FAILURE AND IF YOU HAVE HAD ONE FAIL--PLEASE RELATE THE STORY ON HOW IT HAPPENED..
 
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WILLIAM.M said:
ANOTHER QUESTION FROM DR.BILL :)

ON 9-20-10 I POSTED THIS QUESTION--PLEASE READ IT BEFORE ANSWERING THIS ONE
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=774830

SOME WOULD SPEND MORE $$ ON A SMALL KNIFE--SOME ON A LARGE--SOME 50/50

SOME THOUGHT IT WAS BETTER TO SPEND MORE ON THE BIG KNIFE TO INSURE IT WOULD NOT FAIL(OR INCREASE THE ODDS OF IT NOT FAILING)

THIS QUESTION CONCERNS HOW DO YOU DEFINE FAILURE IN A SMALL KNIFE??

BIG KNIFE FAILURE TO ME IS WHEN IT FAILS TO CHOP WELL,IS PAINFUL WHEN USED AS A CHOPPER,DOES NOT HOLD AN EDGE FOR LONG,ETC-AND IF IT BREAKS...

I'VE NEVER HAD A SMALL KNIFE FAIL AS I USUALLY NEVER TRY TO TAKE THEM EVEN CLOSE TO REACHING THE DESIGN LIMITS

HOW DO YOU DEFINE SMALL KNIFE FAILURE AND IF YOU HAVE HAD ONE FAIL--PLEASE RELATE THE STORY ON HOW IT HAPPENED..
Click to expand...

This post hurts my eyes.
 
My small knife (fixed blade) failures have all been 1)Tip broke off when it should not have, and 2) "How did this blade get so dull so fast?".
Floder failures 1) See above, and 2) Lock failure without a good reason.
I had a non-junk folder, "lock back" break it's spring while I was opening the knife to open a letter. The knife had never cut anything harder than paper.
 
To me a small knife "fails" when any of several things occur. But, to understand what constitutes a "fail", I first have understand exactly what tasks I will be performing with this small knife.
Most of my small knives are used for carving, skinning, gutting, whittling, and intricacies that might be too tedious to do with a bigger knife.
The length of small knife, IME, is usually around 2.75 to 3.75 inches. Something the size of a pocket knife or Izula's blade.
So knowing what I use the knife for, here is what constitutes a failure in my range of experience:

Snapped tip
Edge rolls or chips
Won't hold an edge
Too hard to get sharp (the harder the steel, the harder it is to sharpen. I want something that I can put a quick edge on if I'm out in God's Country...and then refine when I get home)
Gets dull too quickly (all knives will dull with prolonged use, I'm talking about one that gets dull if you just look at it hard)
Won't push-cut without making my thumbs scream in agony.
If it's a folder I don't want to have to use a ton of force to open or close it. It should open smoothly with some resistance, lock in solidly, and close with some resistence. If you have to force it too hard one way or the other you run a risk of hurting yourself. A stitches kind of "hurt".

One thing that kind of irritates me these days about folders is that some manufacturers put every kind of mechanism on Earth in them. Too many moving parts is too many places for something to go wrong. KISS.

An example of a failure:

Was trying to open a pocket knife I'd had for a little while. This thing was always tough as nails to open; but today, for some reason, it was being especially hateful. So I managed to pry it up with my thumb (which ended up being sore from the chipped nail). Because of the pressure and the way I had to hold it: the knife slipped into a position where the blade was over my thumb like a guillotine. Just as it slipped that way the blade tried to close (with a snap) and got my thumb right across the nail. It took a chunk out of my nail, but it didn't go into the quick. After the initial shock and making sure I still had a thumb, I got so mad that I threw the knife as far as I could and left it where it lay.
No amount of oil would fix that damned thing. I don't know why it was so hard to open and close.
I hope whoever found it still has their thumbs.
 
The right handle is important to me. If I take a new knife out and my hand starts hurting after 10 min of use it has failed me. What if I need it secure shelter and fire but my job is exponentially harder due to fatigue or injury(blisters)? There are a lot of knives with decent blades that I would never worry about, but the handle just doesn't work for me. Personal example Fallkniven S1. Love that knife, but it's handle causes problems for me. I won't take it out by itself for that reason alone.
 
Define large knife and small knife. Is there an 'in between knife", such as the one-blade survival knife mentality? An RC5 or BK7 is definitely not a small knife, but I wouldn't define them as a designated chopper, either. You certainly like you statistics...
You need to consider the roles of knives across the lines of size, as well.

A small knife, being considered by myself as a conveniently carried blade for the designated use of slicing tasks... Failure, both in operation and design, would be:
poor edge retention,
edge chipping/microchipping,
tip breaking,
an edge that is too difficult/complicated to be maintained in the field (IE around RC60 and higher...)
a handle that is unergonomic and uncomfortable after extensive use, and unable to be carried in a readily and safely accessible manner. If I think of more I'll stick it in there?

I LOVE my small blades. Haven't had a bad experience that stands out yet. As far as one knife/survival knife sized deals, I have had considerably more issues. I've had a tip break on a SOG SEAL Pup, the Gerber Prodigy cannot take an edge and chips extensively under very basic use so bad that it cannot be readily maintained in the field...
 
PayetteRucker said:
Define large knife and small knife. Is there an 'in between knife", such as the one-blade survival knife mentality? An RC5 or BK7 is definitely not a small knife, but I wouldn't define them as a designated chopper, either. You certainly like you statistics...
You need to consider the roles of knives across the lines of size, as well.

A small knife, being considered by myself as a conveniently carried blade for the designated use of slicing tasks... Failure, both in operation and design, would be:
poor edge retention,
edge chipping/microchipping,
tip breaking,
an edge that is too difficult/complicated to be maintained in the field (IE around RC60 and higher...)
a handle that is unergonomic and uncomfortable after extensive use, and unable to be carried in a readily and safely accessible manner. If I think of more I'll stick it in there?

I LOVE my small blades. Haven't had a bad experience that stands out yet. As far as one knife/survival knife sized deals, I have had considerably more issues. I've had a tip break on a SOG SEAL Pup, the Gerber Prodigy cannot take an edge and chips extensively under very basic use so bad that it cannot be readily maintained in the field...
Click to expand...

some people define small as under 5" Blade---so let's call it that(or any knife you do not chop with)

Just interested in hearing how people who have small knives fail in the field

and I'm always wanting to learn how to post BETTER questions--so if I make a mistake or you can point me to a question you or someone else has posted that I can learn from--please do so..:thumbup:

Thanks in advance

Dr.Bill
 
KEmSAT-Survival said:
To me a small knife "fails" when any of several things occur. But, to understand what constitutes a "fail", I first have understand exactly what tasks I will be performing with this small knife.
Most of my small knives are used for carving, skinning, gutting, whittling, and intricacies that might be too tedious to do with a bigger knife.
The length of small knife, IME, is usually around 2.75 to 3.75 inches. Something the size of a pocket knife or Izula's blade.
So knowing what I use the knife for, here is what constitutes a failure in my range of experience:

Snapped tip
Edge rolls or chips
Won't hold an edge
Too hard to get sharp (the harder the steel, the harder it is to sharpen. I want something that I can put a quick edge on if I'm out in God's Country...and then refine when I get home)
Gets dull too quickly (all knives will dull with prolonged use, I'm talking about one that gets dull if you just look at it hard)
Won't push-cut without making my thumbs scream in agony.
If it's a folder I don't want to have to use a ton of force to open or close it. It should open smoothly with some resistance, lock in solidly, and close with some resistence. If you have to force it too hard one way or the other you run a risk of hurting yourself. A stitches kind of "hurt".

One thing that kind of irritates me these days about folders is that some manufacturers put every kind of mechanism on Earth in them. Too many moving parts is too many places for something to go wrong. KISS.

An example of a failure:

Was trying to open a pocket knife I'd had for a little while. This thing was always tough as nails to open; but today, for some reason, it was being especially hateful. So I managed to pry it up with my thumb (which ended up being sore from the chipped nail). Because of the pressure and the way I had to hold it: the knife slipped into a position where the blade was over my thumb like a guillotine. Just as it slipped that way the blade tried to close (with a snap) and got my thumb right across the nail. It took a chunk out of my nail, but it didn't go into the quick. After the initial shock and making sure I still had a thumb, I got so mad that I threw the knife as far as I could and left it where it lay.
No amount of oil would fix that damned thing. I don't know why it was so hard to open and close.
I hope whoever found it still has their thumbs.
Click to expand...

VERY well thought out answer!!!!!!

OUTSTANDING:thumbup::thumbup:

Sorry about your Thumb
 
Due to the nature of the "small" knife, I have had little failures, and of those, most were my fault. I had a Buck folder (forgot which model) that the tip broke off trying to "grab" some tickets from a skeeball game that just gyped my GF/Wife. Broke about a quarter of an inch off the tip. I had a Case stockman fold the blade back when a spring failed while I was whittling. I had a gerber multitool knife blade do the exact same thing, but I was cutting small electronic wire. Those are really the only failures I can think of right now. The tip breaking was my fault, the other two were just poor manufacturing. Since I have grown mentally since then, I now just use a small knife for small knife tasks. The small knives I own now are and Izula, BK11, and soon an Eskabar (yay), and ESEE 3. That coupled with my BK2, BK7, BK9, Tactool, makes my big/small knive combo. These days its a BK2 with and ESEE 3. Thanks, Doc. Moose
 
moosez45 said:
Due to the nature of the "small" knife, I have had little failures, and of those, most were my fault. I had a Buck folder (forgot which model) that the tip broke off trying to "grab" some tickets from a skeeball game that just gyped my GF/Wife. Broke about a quarter of an inch off the tip. I had a Case stockman fold the blade back when a spring failed while I was whittling. I had a gerber multitool knife blade do the exact same thing, but I was cutting small electronic wire. Those are really the only failures I can think of right now. The tip breaking was my fault, the other two were just poor manufacturing. Since I have grown mentally since then, I now just use a small knife for small knife tasks. The small knives I own now are and Izula, BK11, and soon an Eskabar (yay), and ESEE 3. That coupled with my BK2, BK7, BK9, Tactool, makes my big/small knive combo. These days its a BK2 with and ESEE 3. Thanks, Doc. Moose
Click to expand...

and soon an Eskabar (yay),

Post a photo of that please
 
Honestly a failure in my mind is some phenomenon that renders a knife unuseable..
while there are some attributes that I find preferable to others..
but have yet to experience a "failure" in a smaller blade that would render it unusable in the field.
 
Failure of any tool is simply when that tool can no longer perform its job despite maintenance. If I can sharpen it out, it hasn't failed. If I can't, it has. :)
 
Knife has to be sharp, take an edge and easy to bring its edge back
Handles need to be ergonic to allow sustained carving, at least 20 minutes straight

If the above two criteria aren't met then the knife gets moved. I guess that would be fail.

I've never broken a knife, although I've abused quite a few.
 
RescueRiley said:
Honestly a failure in my mind is some phenomenon that renders a knife unuseable..
while there are some attributes that I find preferable to others..
but have yet to experience a "failure" in a smaller blade that would render it unusable in the field.
Click to expand...

Riley sums it up for me, nicely. There are knives that are "lacking" which I would categorize differently than FAIL.

Rick
 
WILLIAM.M said:
i have very bad eyesight

all caps makes it easy for me to see

did not mean to hurt your eyes

dr.bill
Click to expand...

ummm... may i make a suggestion?

i've got bad eyes too. my regular glasses are +6.75 lenses, and the readers i have on the way are even stronger. plus i have no lens in one eye.

ALL CAPS is harder to read than upper and lower case. simply because there's less difference between the character shapes with all caps, lower case has ascenders and descenders

i'm using a 37" TV for a monitor at a resolution of 1600 x 900. :cool: that helps! :D
 
Small knife failure for me would of course include catastrophic failure such as blade breaks or handle seperation. Excluding that, design flaws that make the knife uncomfortable(or worst yet, dangerous) to use and poor edge geometry are the biggest failures I see on smaller knives out there. Nothing bugs me more with a small knife than seeing an "axe" edge on a sub 4in blade. Not big enough to chop with and too blunt to slice..........WTF? If I need a spike I will bring a tent peg! Another failure I have witnessed is edge chipping from blades being too hard or way too thin. Just bums me out to see this.
 
I'm not really concerned with "Knife Failure" just my opinion but the chances of any knife that you have used and know faithfully, catastrophically failing in the woods is kind of nil. I mean hypothetically if you were stuck in survival mode for a week with just a knife, the tip may round, the blade will dull but actually cracking in half? You gotta be doing something kind of nutty, especially with a smaller knife.

Things I have had happen..
-Rolled an edge on a BK9 hitting a rock on a over-swing (my stupidity in action)
-Broke the tip of a Spyderco Mili, on nothing I can remember doing.
-Messing up edges on various knives trying different "field expedient" sharpening methods

but as far as smaller knife work, nothing really comes to mind, I think digging in a survival situation would be tough, but a diggin stick would take care of that.

just my .02
 
Zombie Zeke said:
I'm not really concerned with "Knife Failure" just my opinion ...

... digging in a survival situation would be tough, but a diggin stick would take care of that.
Click to expand...

All great points, Zeke and 95% of the time you would be right. Not too many folks would ever want to train for 50% of what they may expect in a survival situation, let alone that 5% scenario. It's not fun, it's not bushcraft, it's not an adventure. Your skill level has less to do with it than you think. It is more about what you are willing to do and what you are willing to let go of. It is not about preserving your blade for the future when there may not be a future if you don't use it NOW. It took me quite a while to get my head around that. I don't spend all my time in the woods with that mentality, but I now realize it is a reality... and those who have shared the experience will never forget. The great part is that if you do practice basic wilderness skills and prepardness you should never be in that sort of situation.

Rick
 
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