Another rant about quality and performance...

[Robert Marotz]

As usual, I'm posting in terms of Japanese-style swords mostly since that's what I pay most attention to.

I'm sure basically all of us know that there are decorative swords, often referred to informally as "wallhangers" or in my case, "crap." These are swords that are not made for the sake of being a sword, but for the sake of making money and being something "cool" for the uneducated. Look in Bud K magazine, you know what I'm talking about. These are pretty readily identifiable. However, the opposing class of "sword" is difficult for people to swallow.

There are swords meant to be "used" that range dramatically in price. Why do people always want to try emphasizing that they want the most "battle-worthy" or "usable" sword they can get (obviously within a certain price range most of the time). And this tends to be synonymous to "abusable." You can make a very abusable sword with relative ease. What precisely is the point? Why get a sword for abuse?

Swords can do some pretty incredible things if the swordsman is competent enough. Hacking bushes and plywood is NOT what a sword should go up against. You don't pound concrete with a real sword. You don't hack at wood. You don't chop sides of beef. Tests of that nature should be reserved to makers to abuse-test their products. I will cut anything from cardboard packing tubes (careful with the cardboard choice tho) to bamboo to various mat bundle sizes. I'll bet money (which I don't have, damnit) that a Chen PK will cut through 6 or 9 wara roll without taking damage. I will make the same bet for Chen Shinto. I wouldn't be so sure with a Criswell sword (simply because it would take dramatically more effort to cut through the target) but it probably still could be done. Depends more on who's holding the sword.

There IS an issue of durability though. MANY swords have very respectable levels of durability for their price. Chen, KC, Cicada, probably the imports through CS, Criswell, HI, et cetera. Any sword can be bent or broken. It is part of the romance of swords, being able to use one properly requires a bit of skill. MANY swords will give you a fair degree of leeway in the event of a bad cut. If the sword bends, the target didn't bend it, you did. There are some swords which go to the extreme in forgiveness but the price excludes it from many folks' option list and the swords are not really intended to be considered just "bashable" or "foolproof" swords. Those 2 objectives should not be the focus or direct goal of swordmakers.

If you are a half-serious martial artist and want a blade for cutting or even LEARNING cutting, MANY options lay open to you that will work just fine.

There are some swords that tend to have a little better feel, and a little better balance depending on the art's priorities.

In my opinion, handling is one of the keys to using a sword properly. There's the whole "you use what you have to" BS out there but if you're buying *A* sword to learn and to practice with, it should be comfortable and it should allow you to freely train without developing bad habits or strained wrists or whatever. And I really don't care if you're strong or not, a sword with poor feel, weight and balance can and will have an adverse effect. On the other side of the spectrum, a good sword will be an asset to training.

Performance is a difficult word to put a definition to when it comes to swords. Edge retention? Flexibility? Balance? Weight? Durability? Resistance to oxidation? Hrm...lots of potential areas to consider a blade "high performance" in. For me, it's handling and shaping/geometry that are most important. I think it would be wise to be more specific when people say they're looking for a sword. What is important to them?

I'd like someone to send me one of the new CS swords and give it a little evaluation. As much as I dislike the tactical influence surrounding Cold Steel and the audience they play to most often, I am curious if the CS swords are good. They could basically be an alternative from the standard Chen line and the upcoming KC stuff.

I know some people are afraid to mention this but they want something different from the norm. They want something a little less commonplace, a little more unique. The way it comes out often sounds stupid, but is a very legitimate feeling. Perhaps we'll have some more options in the lower-end price range (under $700-800) with CS and KC.

People will inevitably continue to ask what the best sword is for such and such price range. People will continue to follow the assumption that everyone has a congruent opinion of what performance is. I just thought I'd try to explain that the sword market is different from the knife market.

Hoping I was articulate enough to make some sense,
Shinryû.

[This message has been edited by Robert Marotz (edited 03-10-2001).]

 

[jk]

Mr. Marotz:

Thanks for posting this. One of the points you brought up was that: "Swords can do some pretty incredible things if the swordsman is competent enough." One of the things I'm guilty of is paying too much attention to what a sword is made out of, whether it be forge-welded cable, L-6, "Swedish powdered steel", or whatever. To use an imperfect analogy, there are some beginning golfers who chase after the latest and greatest, most technologically advanced drivers, just because they have the cash. What they should be doing, of course, is concentrating on improving their overall game, instead of trying to get that extra edge through technology.

Still, I think a forum like this is very useful when it helps us find a vendor/supplier/maker who can give us the most value (subjective, of course) for our money. Perhaps that is what some people are really trying to ask when posting to this forum.

Just my minor comments. I'll shut up and get back to training now...

Regards,
John Kuo

 

[Robert Marotz]

Mr. Kuo...

Since you brought up a nice analogy, I'll jot down one or two to try to nail some different perspectives...

An intermediate guitar player with an expensive high-end custom guitar can still play badly, where a professional could take a cheap guitar and play beautifully. Whose skill is better complimented by the high-end guitar?

What good is buying a Ferrari if you don't know how to shift or cannot stay on the road?

Even some of the seemingly lowliest swords can have surprising potential when used well. You can have a beautiful and ultra-durable L6 bainite-martensite kat from Howard but will it really do you much good if you can't cut completely through the targets in the first place?

Shinryû.

 

[Jerry Hossom]

There may be another way of looking at this, though I find little to disagree with in what Robert has said. It *might* be in everyone's interest if there were more, cheap swords that at least mimic the designs and utility of finer blades. Making swords accessible to more people, providing more novices with an opportunity to handle and grow interested in swordsmanship as a prelude to further education and training, could be quite healthy for the Sword World in general.

Drawing on the golf analogy, it's quite probable that most of the world's finest golfers played their first rounds of golf with a $100 set of matching woods and irons from whatever discount store was handy. They were poorly constructed, badly balanced, and failed in most of the features that more experienced golfers would demand, but they were the beginning of a Tiger Wood.

Interest necessarily precedes ability, so whatever can increase the general interest level in swords might in time result in a larger field of skilled and knowledeable swordsmen, who then demand and use ever finer blades to suit their advancing needs and skills. Holding the bar too high for all who are interested, especially as beginners, is not necessarily best for the sport or artform.

We were *all* in the first grade once. As then, we needed wide lined paper and fat pencils long before we were ready to move on to Mont Blanc and parchment.

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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
The New Tom & Jerry Show

 

[couteaux]

Wow! I can't add anything to this thread - just wanted to say I like its tone! Excellent points from all!

Bob

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"The search is half the fun!"

 

[JoeL]

Robert,

The guitar analogy is not right. I am an intermediate guitar player, and if you play the "Marieta" with a good guitar and a cheap guitar, the difference is vast. Without a certain resonance and sound quality, it just don't sound right, and the whole piece just seemed chopped up.

Back to sword, our Sensei, who is 6 or 7th dan, performed a "dragonfly cut" with a cheap China made repro katana a few months ago, and he performed flawlessly. Dragonfly cut is to place a section of tatami roll horizontally, cut one side first and cut the other side before that begin to fall. The sword has the right geometry and sharp at the time though.

On another instance, one of our senior student ( not too senior as he learned only 2 year) cut through a 3" diameter bamboo we found in a construction site with a mumei gunto. The cut was flawlessly and the sword come out straight and without any damage , but when I applauded about the sword, he demonstrated bang the flat of that particular sword on his own forearm and that gunto bent to a big S. He said to me that it is all about the right amount of force and angle and blade aligment.

These incidences completely changed my view of katana. When I saw "body guard" a few years ago I said, Wow so sharp. When I've got to handle a gunto a little bit later, I was completely disappointed. But both impressions are not correct.

I think once you practice cutting with a katana, you'll be suprised too on how to define performance. I was very suprise to see myself bending a super-tough 1086 katana 2 months ago

that's lousy swordmanship!

Joe

[This message has been edited by JoeL (edited 03-11-2001).]

 

[Robert Marotz]

Joe, I'm not much of a guitar player. I did some electric but that's about it. The analogy came from another electric gee-tawr player...

But you're right...the cutting fashion and the objective in cutting is much different than many people think. That's one reason I made the post in the first place.