Another strop thread....

[d.weglarz13]

Okay guys. I used the search bar but have some more questions that can't seem to find the answers to for my specific uses. Also used google but figured you guys can help like always.
These days, I sharpen completely freehand on my DMT's, then Shapton glass to 2k, then strop. I have had great results over the years, but its time for a new setup, and I'm rather bored with the old strops and would like to "revamp" my sharpening and strop materials...
I may even switch to a WE system later, since my hands and arthritis in my main hand is getting worse and at some time in the future will have to bite the bullet, but for now I can still get almost perfect edges freehand so wanting to stay with that for now.

My most used strop is the strop bat from JRE. I really like the hard leather they use on the strop, and would like to stay away from softer leathers. I am going to purchase some leather to make a new couple strops or a bat, but really wondering about the best stiff leather and compounds.

So, what type of leather would you call this? Its not soft like the stropman ones, but rather pretty hard and stiff with very little or no give to it.
And, with the black/green/pink compounds from JRE then plain leather, I am getting awesome results, but since I am updating, i may as well be open to even better performance.

Should i stick with the JRE compounds? I hear so much about balsa vs. leather, paste vs. spray, etc. etc. Its starting to make my head hurt, so I ask you guys in order to stop me from getting fed up, and actually ordering some leather and compound today to make the darn thing.

Most my knives are either 1095, 01, S35vn. Mostly v edges. But this makes it harder, because like most of use i am constantly working on or using different knives as I make or buy them, so other steels are always in the mix. But, like I said for me the JRE bat with their compounds seem to work pretty well.

So, I will order some leather from Jantz or some place, but what kind of leather am I looking for with these traits? What is it called as compared to softer leathers that I don't want to order? I have no leather factory near me, so online ordering is my best bet.

Now. Compounds. I know its been asked a million times, but here goes again. What is best? Well, for me anyways....
I know certain mediums are better for different steels, freehand vs. guided system, etc. etc. etc.

Should I keep the JRE stuff since its fine, or are there better options for these steels, or all around uses? I never tried the sprays or diamonds, just the paste clay stuff after all these years. I am willing to try something else if its a lot better, but a lot of things I read seem to be "stay with what works for you" type answers. Any other advice or suggestions? I don't want to spend a lot of money, but it is time for some new stuff, plus its fun to make these strops so I will enjoy it anyway.

Funny thing, I still don't even know how fine(microns) the compounds from JRE even are, after how long I have used them, but for me they just work.
Best place to buy stiff leather? I like the rough side up for the compound, and smooth side up for the last stage of plain leather. The wood or base doesn't matter, as I have tons of it as scrap, just can't get my hands on good leather from anyone around me.
And, as far as compounds go, should I just order some more from JRE or are there better options? I know there are TONS of options, just hoping based on my uses, some of you use the same stuff or similar and can give some other options?

I ask because I really don't want to try out every compound or spray out there just to find what works again for me after all the years. Just looking to stay with my known technique, just some new leather and compounds that will work the same without changing technique.



So, first, do you guys think I need another stone before going to the strops from my glass 2000 grit shapton? Its worked like this so far for most steels, but if i can get better faster results by adding a stone, I am open to it. The thing is, I go light on my last few 2K glass stone, and can get a real nice edge, but again if I can bridge the gap to get better results, I am for it. I just haven't really yet due to being so busy all the time, and for a long time now, this is what I use, but again I still don't know how big a gap i am jumping in grits after the stones since I don't even know the microns of the compounds I use. I know it sounds stupid. I just always go based on my hands and feel, as opposed to measurements of microns on paper, for real world use.

So, any options/suggestions or advice, is more that appreciated. Just felt today like making a new strop and refining my stone/strop set up if need be. I get that feeling every once in a while when I have a slow day. So, feel free to throw anything out there, I will do a bit of looking into any other options. Ok. Enough rambling. Going to search some more, but please tell me what you guys think. I love reading opinionated threads about sharpening/stropping anyways, and I can't find any recent threads here before like a year or two ago. Any advice I thank you for in advance.

Dave

 

[Rappy]

First off I don't have experience with higher steels, mostly carbon etc. The best type of leather you can get for strops would be kangaroo, but
It's relatively expensive and harder to get, I know a store where you can get leather for a good price its called Distant Drums Leather.

For Stropping Compound I only have experience with Stropman, Robert is a great guy and their compound is the best IMHO
again I only use the compound for simple steels. (1095, etc)
I use Black, White, and Green compound.

For Strops I use well.. Stropman!

 

[d.weglarz13]

I was under the impression that Strop Man is softer leather with a LOT more give, than the JRE leather. Thanks for the suggestion though, I may give him a call and see if he has anything stiffer.
I may just end up ordering from JRE again, but would love to hear some other opinions. Thanks Rappy

dave

 

[ToddS]

I bought some of the kangaroo tail strop material from the fellow on eBay. With some sanding it makes a great bench strop.

 

[HeavyHanded]

You can use any vegetable tanned leather and case it yourself. Member Stitchawl put up a nice simple description of the home process - this will give you a nice firm strop, close to a soft wood like balsa.

Step by step:
1. Wet the leather. No need to soak it for any length of time. Running it under the tap for a second or two, front and back, is enough.
2. VERY IMPORTANT - let the leather dry for a while. Before you wet it it was a light tan color. Water darkened it a lot. Let it dry until it's about half-way back to its original color. At THAT point it will be almost as squishy as modeling clay.
3. Use a large diameter rolling pin, the heavier the better. Marble pastry pins are great for this, but even a piece of 3-4" PCV pipe will work. Now start rolling on the smooth side of the leather. Roll from end to end evenly, bearing down on the roller. Do this for 4-5 minutes, not just one minute. This will firm up the leather. If you are going to use this for a bare leather strop, roll it for 10-15 minutes. The rolling will force more silicates to migrate to the top of the leather.
4. Let it dry naturally, then glue to a backing or use as a hanging strop.

Keep in mind that any natural oil... ANY oil... is going to soften the leather. Makes no difference if it's Lexol or Olive oil. Lexol is more compatible with leather. Olive oil won't hurt it. But both will soften the leather... Soooo... if you really want a good firm strop, but need to put some sort of strop conditioner on it, dab it on a finger tip and rub it out well. Don't paint it on with a brush, or rub it on with a saturated cloth, or pour it on and rub away the excess. None of the above will harm the leather, but they will significantly soften the leather more than is needed to preserve it. The strop conditioner I use on my grandfathers old hanging strop has the consistency of thicker Vaseline, and I use less than a pea-size for the entire strop once a year. My grandfather used it every day as did my dad. I'm guessing that this stop is about 75 years old... and the leather looks brand new.


Stitchawl

For working with compound, I prefer to use regular paper wrapped around a stone or on one of my Washboards. Even a dollar bill will work very well over a nice hard surface. The finer grades of leather are really best reserved for plain leather finish stropping. Otherwise all that you need is a surface that will accept the compound and hold it reasonably well, and have the amount of give that works for the edge type you're working on.

As for compound, if you don't have a favorite, Flexcut Gold is one of the better general purpose compounds you can get and will leave a near mirror polish if you set it up well. I have no idea what the abrasive size is in the materials you've been using (JRE).

 

[REK Knives]

I bought some of the kangaroo tail strop material from the fellow on eBay. With some sanding it makes a great bench strop.

how do you sand strops to get them to where you want them? Also, is the grit from the sandpaper impregnating into the strop material a concern?

 

[ToddS]

how do you sand strops to get them to where you want them? Also, is the grit from the sandpaper impregnating into the strop material a concern?

I "lapped" them flat after gluing them to the paddle with 80 grit sandpaper and finished them with 220. Kangaroo sands very nicely - much smoother than other leathers or wood. The grit is always a concern - I alternate between the shop vac and compressed air and have not had an issue.

 

[stitchawl]

We won't discuss horse hide 'shells' for this, as they are just about unobtainable for the average person. Best, but not available.

If you have access to water buffalo hide that's been vegetable tanned, the 'shoulder' portion of that leather will be just about the most firm, dense leather you can start with when planning to properly case the leather.

If you can't get buffalo hide, then the next 'hardest' leather will come from the 'shoulder' cut of vegetable tanned cow hide. When buying this, you can specify the 'weight' of the hide (which translates to its thickness.) If you can get it, ask for 9oz-10oz vegetable tanned shoulder leather, then proceed to case it as per my quote in HeavyHanded's post. If you REALLY want the leather firm... roll it hard for 30 minutes. Use a heavy rolling pin, such as the marble type used for pastry making. Lean on it and roll!

Buying scraps from the hobby shop bin 'might' get you shoulder leather, but it might get you belly cuts just as often. If you're serious about your strops, buy the best leather you can afford. Handled correctly it will NEVER wear out.

Most strops sold by newer (opened in the last 10 years) shops selling to knife sharpeners spend a few hours making fancy wooden bases and handles, but only few minutes slapping on a strip of leather. Granted, they usually ARE using vegetable tanned leather, but they haven't spent any time turning that vegetable tanned leather into a strop. They just cut it to size and glue it down (sorry, this is one of my pet peeves...) and then tell you 'Here is a great strop made with Birdseye Maple and vegetable tanned leather. We call it our "Super Strop!" We'll even throw in some free compound!"

If you want the 'best there is,' make it yourself. It only takes less than an hour. It's not rocket science, and you don't need fancy tools. It's not expensive. It will be something to pass down to your grandkids. You can find 'shoulder leather' from a dozen different sites on the Net that will ship to you. You won't regret the time or effort.


Stitchawl

 

[d.weglarz13]

Wow guys, thanks so much for this info. I didn't even think to get leather and "case it" like you say. Sounds great, as i prefer to do things myself anyway as to get it just how I want it. And this is great info, as like I was saying the JRE leather was very uniform, stiff, and hard without being too thick. I think rolling it out as you suggest, I can probably get it even harder. Again, thanks for this info. I am looking up shoulder leather now, or maybe I'll find some buffalo hide...I can't wait to try my hand at this. I appreciate putting the time in, even if only an hour to get a great result, as opposed to just buying pre-made.
I'm thinking I should just stay with the JRE compounds, since I have good results with it already....


Dave

 

[d.weglarz13]

I did find some buffalo strips of 8-10oz that seem like they are some kind of belt blanks. It says cut from the hide with unfinished edges. Would something like this work? Just happened to check eBay and there are plenty of vendors that sell similar strips of buffalo like this and you can even pick the length and width. Just wondering if this is what you guys mean by the "best." Thanks again for all the help.

dave

 

[stitchawl]

I did find some buffalo strips of 8-10oz that seem like they are some kind of belt blanks. It says cut from the hide with unfinished edges. Would something like this work? Just happened to check eBay and there are plenty of vendors that sell similar strips of buffalo like this and you can even pick the length and width. Just wondering if this is what you guys mean by the "best." Thanks again for all the help.

dave

Dave, the important part to keep in mind is that only 'vegetable tanned' leather is going to respond to the casing process. Neither Chrome tanned nor Oil tanned leather will remain in a compressed state. With what you've written, there is no way for us to know about the tanning process used for these e-bay leathers. However, most e-Bay vendors will answer questions about their products so it's pretty easy for you to find out. Ask them which part of the hide their strips are coming from, and by what process were they tanned. Actually, you might be able to get a vendor to cut you a piece of shoulder leather in the exact dimensions that you really want! Personally, I like 3"x 10" for my bench strops, and 3" or 4" by 18" for my hanging strops. But it's really a matter of personal preference rather than what is 'best.'

 

[d.weglarz13]

Wow great. I appreciate all the info. I think I will go the shoulder leather route if the strips aren't veg tanned. I'm real excited to start this new strop. I think I will do a couple for practice and perhaps for trying out some alternative compounds. Cheers

Dave

 

[stitchawl]

Wow great. I appreciate all the info. I think I will go the shoulder leather route if the strips aren't veg tanned. I'm real excited to start this new strop. I think I will do a couple for practice and perhaps for trying out some alternative compounds. Cheers

Dave

A shoulder of good quality leather will make a lot of strops. If you take the time to roll them out well, really compressing the leather, I'll bet you can sell each one for a good profit. There are enough folks who have learned that just because it's called a strop doesn't mean it's a good one. As I said before, almost all of the commercial sellers put their time into making pretty wood bases and fancy double paddles. I'd love to see someone turning out high quality bench strops for the knife community where the effort went into the leather and how it was treated, rather than the base and how nicely it was sanded and stained. A little advertising talking up the high quality leather rather than the high quality base would be 'the better mousetrap.'

 

[d.weglarz13]

Again Stitch, thanks. I'm going to look for a good quality shoulder or two. The strips I see on eBay are veg tanned but oiled. So no good.

As far as casing it the way like you say, I assume this would work for the rough side of the leather for the compounds, and also for the smooth side when finishing on "bare" leather? Or are you referring to one side instead of the other. Thanks again for the clarification and if they come out like I think, I would love to offer some out to anyone interested. Tonight I will order some from either ebay or a vendor site.
3 x 10", huh? That sounds good. I was thinking 2" wide and like 10 or 11" long, but yea 2 1/2-3" wide would be ideal. Might as well custom them wider since I don't usually see good wide ones around much.

Dave

 

[stitchawl]

Again Stitch, thanks. I'm going to look for a good quality shoulder or two. The strips I see on eBay are veg tanned but oiled. So no good.

Bummer...

As far as casing it the way like you say, I assume this would work for the rough side of the leather for the compounds, and also for the smooth side when finishing on "bare" leather? Or are you referring to one side instead of the other.

Personally, I only use the smooth 'grain' side of the leather (as opposed to the rough 'flesh' side.) The most apparent difference being that the rough side puts less surface in contact with the blade at any given time. It's not going to be noticeably more (or less) aggressive just because it's rough. Granted, it is easier to apply a hard block compound to the flesh side, but most people use waaaaay too much compound anyway. (All you need do is add some translucent color to the leather. You do NOT need to make an opaque covering with the compound.) I've never seen any need to 'sand' a leather strop, although I have 'cleaned' some from time to time with Lighter Fluid after they've been in use for 4-5 years. I have different strops with different compounds, although these days I've pretty much limited it to 2-3 strops for this. And I use bare shell Cordovan horsehide strops for finishing.

All my stropping is done on the grain side of the leather using either it either with compounds or bare. Convex edges are done on my Hanging strops and beveled edges done on my Bench strops.

Keep in mind these are 'my personal opinions' based on over 50 years of leather working and 60 years of knife sharpening. (Running concurrently. I'm really not 110 years old, despite how I may feel.) Other folks might disagree.


Stitchawl

 

[d.weglarz13]

Great. I too, prefer the smooth side and always wondered why so many use the flesh side. This clears things up a good bit.
One more question. Would wetting it more than once throughout the rolling process be beneficial, especially if I roll the leather for more than 10-15 min? I know in the past I have had leather dry up pretty quickly as I work it, just wondering if any benefit to continually wetting and rolling, or just once. I plan on making these real hard, so I will be rolling these for a good while.
And, been seeing your knowledgeable posts for years now, so I definitely trust your "opinions". Thanks again Stitch!

Dave

 

[stitchawl]

Great. I too, prefer the smooth side and always wondered why so many use the flesh side. This clears things up a good bit.
One more question. Would wetting it more than once throughout the rolling process be beneficial, especially if I roll the leather for more than 10-15 min? I know in the past I have had leather dry up pretty quickly as I work it, just wondering if any benefit to continually wetting and rolling, or just once. I plan on making these real hard, so I will be rolling these for a good while.

It wouldn't hurt, but I don't think it will help very much. Keep in mind that after you wet it, you do want the leather to dry a bit before you begin to roll it, rather than starting when the leather just comes out of the water. Let the surface color just begin to return, and then go to work on it. If you take a small sample of the leather, wet it well (soaking isn't necessary, but getting it good and wet for this is,) then set it aside for 30 minutes or so. You should be able to 'feel' a consistency change. The leather should start to feel like modeling clay at this stage. Very responsive to manipulation. Here's a trick you might wish to try on one of them.... Add a 2-3 spoonfuls of automotive windshield washer liquid to the water. It seems to improve the penetration.

And, been seeing your knowledgeable posts for years now, so I definitely trust your "opinions". Thanks again Stitch!

Dave

Thanks for the kind words! I appreciate them.


Stitchawl

 

[d.weglarz13]

Ok great. Windshield wiper fluid? Never heard that one before. It feels like every day I learn something new here. Thanks again for all the help.

dave

 

[ToddS]

..... I've never seen any need to 'sand' a leather strop,...l

Great information here, particularly for making a "bare" strop.

I find that the spray abrasives, particularly sub-micron diamond and CBN, are best applied to sanded leather. Two reasons - it allows the spray to soak-in and it increases the surface area which increases the effectiveness of the abrasive.

 

[stitchawl]

Great information here, particularly for making a "bare" strop.

I find that the spray abrasives, particularly sub-micron diamond and CBN, are best applied to sanded leather. Two reasons - it allows the spray to soak-in and it increases the surface area which increases the effectiveness of the abrasive.

Yes... I can see how removing the tight grain-side cells would open up the leather to permit more liquid to be absorbed.
And it certainly would increase the surface area. But...

...considering that when dealing with sub-micron particles, does the blade actually come into significantly greater surface contact? Enough to really be noticeable? In my mind, I'm imagining that it would amount to the equivalent of one stroke in twenty. And when dealing with stropping using sub-micron abrasive, I normally don't take more than 10-15 strokes anyway, however I realize that a lot of folks like to strop hundreds of strokes, so that's only my personal opinion.


Stitchawl