Another VG-1 Thread

C

Confederate

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After reviewing a previous thread about VG-1 and AUS8, no consensus was reached. Many felt that based on their review of specifications, VG-1 would have an "edge" over AUS8. But it's now been long enough that some solid facts should be known.

Has anyone made a blade to blade test of one against the other? And how close is VG-1 to being a "premium" steel like VG-10? There's been some grumbling about VG-10, but most agree it's got better edge retention qualities than AUS8.

Lynn Thompson's motives for changing steels is likely due to the prices they can get these steels at. But once gone, CS has to either charge more for knives with VG-1 or, if steel prices soar more than they have, returning to AUS8. Once the dollar completely loses to the Euro, the new premium steel might be AUS6 if the economy becomes bad enough.

When Cold Steel bought some huge hunks of 440A, they released a whole series of knives until they ran out; then those knives were eliminated, save for the popular Recon 1, which was upgraded to AUS8.

Despite VG-1's specs, the likely reason CS's knives were "upgraded" is due to the company getting a huge supply of VG-1 at a better price than AUS8. But now that CS is committed to the new steel, they may find that VG-1 isn't as good of a price as it was the first time.
 
Well, I've got one of their San Mai 3 Trailmasters and it holds a way better edge than the 14 year old Carbon V SRK I have.

Whatever the pros and cons of vg-1 are, it's proven, at least to me, to be pretty damn good. I flog the crap out if it and it holds up well.
 
This is a bit off topic, but wouldn't you rather have a blade made entirely of VG-1 than to have two slabs of the cheapest stainless they could find slapped on either side of it? The whole idea behind laminated steels is to give a blade the edge retention of premium grade steel, with the rugged dependability of lower grade stainless to keep it from breaking or being damaged.

But Cold Steel makes folders with 6-inch blades made of VG-1. If it was subject to breakage or damage "during the rigors of battle," as Lynn Thompson would say, wouldn't they make those blades out of tougher material? As far as corrosion is concerned, I don't hear any complaints about VG-1 rusting.

In short, VG-1 may be a good steel, but it's not a premium steel that needs the protection of soft stainless around it.

So you do have the benefit of a VG-1 blade, as far as edge retention is conerned, but remember that San Mai used to be made with a core of AUS8, which Cold Steel is now using as a substitute for their Carbon V. If it needed the protection of 420J2 stainless, I wouldn't think it would be appropriate for big survival knives.

Another stainless, 4116 Krupp, replaced 420 in many of their low cost fixed blades. The prices of these new knives mysteriously dropped when they went with 4116, but they immediately claimed the steel was an upgrade and was closer in performance to 440A in edge retention. But the steel was clearly cheaper, and I grudgingly give a nod to Cold Steel for reducing their prices. But is the new 4116 Krupp equal to or better than 420? Well, who knows? The knife magazines won't give their readers a clue, nor will they go through the trouble to test steels so consumers can make intelligent decisions.

So here we are a year or so since the switch was made, and all we can do is compare charts and guess. And before we criticize Cold Steel too much, many manufacturers don't even list their steels any more. Except the good ones. Gerber used to advertise their steels, but no more. And zipping through catalogs or web sites like Smoky Mountain, all we're now reading is "Surgical stainless," or, more often, just "Stainless steel blade."

Okay, too much ranting. My apologies. Cheers!
 
I carry a 4" CS Voyager in VG-1. It is some hard steel. It seems to hold an edge better than my older ones in AUS-8, and I thought they were pretty good. I don't have any scientific data, but it does hold an edge better.
 
is the vg1 in the voyagers laminated? (san mai III),,,thanks,,VWB.
 
in my last catalog they were not advertised as laminated i think the only folders they have in san mai are those ridiculously expensive ones like the black sable and hatamato. you could get a sebenza for that price.
 
Voyagers are made with all VG-1 blades. Kinda makes one wonder if a strong 6-inch blade can be made out of the stuff, why a laminated blade would be better.

I'd most certainly rather have an all-VG-1 blade than an expensive CS San Mai, especially an AUS8 San Mai.
 
does anyone know the chemical content of vg-1? just wondering how it compares to the other stainless steels in make-up.,,,VWB.

PS- also anyone know the hardness level of vg-1 used in the voyagers?
 
VG-1 is an upgrade over AUS-8 for wear resistance and a downgrade in toughness. It also comes from a more reputable steel company, I don't know what there is to complain about.

4116 Krupp has higher carbon than 420, 420 is too low in carbon to be useful in a knife blade, IMO.

I think mostly this topic keeps coming up because people want to complain, no testing or metallurgy has been used to debate the topic.
 
I have several CS knives in VG-1 steel and a couple in Aus 8-A. I've found that the VG-1 will hold a better edge, but the AUS is easier to re-sharpen when it comes time to do so.
 
Larrin said:
VG-1 is an upgrade over AUS-8 for wear resistance and a downgrade in toughness. It also comes from a more reputable steel company, I don't know what there is to complain about.
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No complaints...just wonderment. Most of us are at the mercy of the knifemakers when it comes to trust. We trust that the steel is what we're told it is. We trust that it's heat treated properly. And there's really no way to tell until someone tests it. But unfortunately, even knife magazines don't test a representative sample of knives to find out how hard the metal is. An AUS8 blade in a CRKT can be as soft as RC 56 and still be in tolerance.

4116 Krupp has higher carbon than 420, 420 is too low in carbon to be useful in a knife blade, IMO.
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But...but...MINE'S "sub-zero quenched"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The 4416 also must be cheaper, since the CS models employing it dropped after the change.

I think mostly this topic keeps coming up because people want to complain, no testing or metallurgy has been used to debate the topic.
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Exactly. There's no interest in testing a steel that only one company uses, and a company that's not too popular to begin with. Is it fair to say that the two steels are fairly close in toughness and edge retention, or does VG-1 represent a significant increase in edge retention? They're also making 6-inch blades out of the stuff, so it should be pretty tough.

Thanks!
 
Thanks hardheart, for saving me the trouble of either finding those composition tables or creating them again.

Both the metallurgy and the use reports I have read here on the forums support Larrin's comments on wear resistance. The metallurgy supports the toughness comment, but I have not read of any side by side comparisons on toughness of the two steels.
 
Confederate said:
Exactly. There's no interest in testing a steel that only one company uses, and a company that's not too popular to begin with. Is it fair to say that the two steels are fairly close in toughness and edge retention, or does VG-1 represent a significant increase in edge retention? They're also making 6-inch blades out of the stuff, so it should be pretty tough.

Thanks!
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I appreciate your open mind. The answer about the difference is it's hard to say. I think the increase in wear resistance is fairly significant. It is hard to say how much different users will actually see between knives. IMO, without some kind of standardized test it is pretty difficult to notice all but the largest differences in edge holding. Even, if the difference is significant, we may not even notice. It's just human. Even with standardized testing your results can vary widely based on the type of cutting and the level of polish you give when sharpening, in some cases lower wear resistance actually gives greater edge retention, or toughness or strength may be more important to the edge retention than wear resistance. As far as toughness, you have to be abusing your knives to learn how much they will take before they break or chip anyway, so most users won't learn that. From a little experience with 19C27 (a grade similar to VG1), I think it is a pretty good steel. Some have scoffed at Cold Steel's report that they tested many steels and found it to have the best combination of properties, but even if they didn't, they definitely didn't just pick the cheapest steel they could find, it comes from a reputable steel company, and though the composition isn't flashy, it's fairly balanced, with a low percentage of primary (large) carbides compared to steels like ATS-34. Knarfeng, VG-1 should have greater carbide volume and size than AUS-8, giving lower toughness. It may or may not be a lot, I don't know.

As for prices going down when moving to 4116, it looks like a win/win to me, moving to a better steel and also saving on costs. 4116 has been used for a long time and is usually high quality as made by the German steel companies.

After all this, I have to add that I'm not even a Cold Steel fan, and I can't think of many (if any) models that I like. I'm just trying to throw some reason in here.
 
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