Another WAVE rip-off!!!!

R

ROSANGHAL

Joined
Aug 5, 1999
Messages
610
Check out this guy's folders.:mad:

http://www.rayrogers.com/foldpix.htm

At the end of the description for his folders he has "Pocket Hook for rapid deployment" or "Pocket Hook style thumb stud for easy one handed access."

Does this crap ever stop?!?!?

Go get 'em Derek and Ernie.

Ross T.
 
Hey, Ros! I dunno what exactly is specified under the patent, though I suspect this gets around it ...:confused:

Kinda ugly to do it like that tho' ;)
 
Yuck! That looks horrible! I wish Ernie could give em the ARMBAR OF DOOM legally...!:D
 
Give the guy a break...he's a custom maker. Hope you don't pick on the guy ...'cause I just pointed out his wave like hook to everyone over at GlockTalk a few days back. Even Spyderco allows custom makers to use the hole. Seems to me it's a different market entirely. His folders would be more than twice the street price of a Commander. Ray's a quality guy.

Say...do those Dragon's Teeth on the Emerson look ever so slightly like a SpyderEdge? Hmmmm..... People in glass houses....
 
Spyderco licenses the hole to other makers. Custom makers are generally very open about sharing ideas and asking "Hey, that's cool. Can I use that?" and full credit is given. Case in point is my SRJ Hunter. It is Steve Johnson's design and his knife. He lets me use the pattern. He is my friend. I give full credit and named the knife after him in respect for his friendship. It is common knowledge that Emerson does not want his patented idea used. The custom knife community is a small world. Pleading ignorance is not an excuse.
 
In case you were not aware, LynnBob, the wave is patented. That means Emerson is able to bring legal action against anyone using his patented idea with out his permission.

I believe that the last time someone asked at a show if emerson was gonna licence the wave the responce was "no, no way, not ever"

When the pattent expires in however many years we are gonna see a slew of waved knives on the market.

Till then the only people that can legaly use the wave on knives for sale are emerson knives inc, Emerson custom knives, and whoever emerson licences. The amount of licencees at the moment happens to be 0 and is likely to remain so.

"Seems to me it's a different market entirely. His folders would be more than twice the street price of a Commander. Ray's a quality guy. "
thats not the issue. The issue is that Ray used a pattented feature on one of his knives without permission from the pattent holder.

Thats what is usualy called a Law Suit in the making.

And thanks so much ross for letting us all know that their is another rip off artist around.

Hey, want a tip on serations and the Glass houses comment?
Even if Spyderco patented serations, if another knife company uses serations W/O permission and spyderco does not sue or take any action, spyderco has waived its right to sue in other cases.

If you are silent on your rights then courts will usualy deem them waived.

Its not an issue of people jumping on a knifemaker other than EE.

Its that if Emerson does not take action in every case he is going to very soon find benchmade, rekat, CRK&T, spyderco and EVERY other custom maker offering waved knives and he is going to be holding a worthless pattent.

Its economic self defence using a court order.
 
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1='5,878,500'.WKU.&OS=PN/5,878,500&RS=PN/5,878,500

thats the URL to the wave's pattent.

here is a quote from the offending web page.

http://www.rayrogers.com/compan.htm

"The integral design plus the flat screws I used resulted in a knife that is barely 4/10ths of an inch thick and weighs only 5 ounces, even with a 1/8th inch BG-42 blade. The 4" (tip to pivot) blade Rockwells at 61 and is fitted with my Pocket Hook for rapid deployment. "

Now here is a statement from the patten.
"Therefore, it is an object of this invention to provide a self-opening folding knife that is automatically opened during removal from a container. Another object is to provide a self-opening folding knife that can be removed from a container and opened with one hand. A further object is to provide a self-opening folding knife that releasably locks in the open position when fully opened. "

and here is another
"While certain specific relationships, materials and other parameters have been detailed in the above description of preferred embodiments, those can be varied, where suitable, with similar results. Other applications, variations and ramifications of the present invention will occur to those skilled in the art upon reading the present disclosure. Those are intended to be included within the scope of this invention as defined in the appended claims. "



emerson patent - Preferably, the projection is formed integrally with the blade, having side surfaces coplanar with the blade and has a *******hook-like shape with the tip of the hook extending toward the blade tip. *****
...
Therefore, it is an object of this invention to provide a self-opening folding knife that is automatically opened during removal from a container.

Rayrogers.com/compan.htm - is fitted with my Pocket Hook for rapid deployment.

OK, lets see, the pattent mentioned the purpose for the invention, takes into account the fact other people are going to want to use it and it covers that in other documentation.

Waved knives have had HOW much publicity? It won an award at which Blade show? Oh yeah, the big one in atlanta.

As i told someone else, my bladeforums name is Memnoch, My real name is Mitchell. Neither of those names is monica, so don't ask me to swallow that much crap.

Its a pattent infringment. It uses simmilar language to that in the patent documents that took 45 seconds to get online if you have an emerson knife with the pattent number printed right under the wave.
the number is 5,878,500.
I posted the URL if you want to go see it. Good try, nice knives, and i hope he can sell a lot of them cause i see a call from an attorney or better yet, a restraining order coming from a court.
 
Look...it's a thumb stud sticking out from the side of the knife. It's not a cut-out on the top of the knife blade. There's a limit to how far one can stretch a patent. (By the way...thanks for letting me know it's patented Memnoch...I would never have guessed otherwise.) :D Who here really thinks that Ray is going to steal market share from EKI? Ray's folders are more utilitarian than tactical. Emerson's knives aren't very utilitarian (at least I can peel an apple with my CQC7A).

As far as letting you all know...Ray's knives have been discussed in the Custom forum and elsewhere for sometime.

I think Spyderco doesn't go after everyone that copies the teeth 'cause they don't have the time, money, or inclination. Or, perhaps Sal's not petty enough to pick every nit. (Yikes...that was an unfortunate turn of phrase given my households recent battle with lice.) Perhaps it's like swimming against the current and he's given up. Who knows? In any event...if you are saying that Emerson copied the teeth...but it's ok 'cause Spyderco didn't bother to defend the patent...does that make Ernie any less a thief? A thief is a thief...whether or not he gets caught.

If Emerson starts going after small fry custom makers for such things...then he's a small man indeed IMHO. Quite the hypocrite given the teeth analogy above. I'll "borrow" from other makers (who thankfully don't sue me), but if anyone borrows from me...lawsuit city. Not gonna even mention the pocket clip... :D

[Freud Mode]I like the wave...I like his knives...but really guys...you need to not be sooooo defensive. I know EKI has taken a great deal of heat re: various things here and on other forums. They are very nice knives IMHO and you all should be more secure. You need to have higher knife self-esteem. Lighten up...don't see threats everywhere. Jeez.[/Freud Mode}

Anyway, Emerson will do what he will do...and it's really none of my business. Say...maybe I can cruise on over the the Reeve forum. Ray makes framelocks...maybe they'll get themselves in a tizzy and recommend lawsuits too.
 
Memnoch,

Hey...that Monica line really was funny!!!!

Our posts crossed in cyberspace. So...more from me...

I guess my point is this. I can go to a store and buy 20 different types of toasters. Each toaster has as its stated purpose the browning of bread. Each does this task in a slightly different manner.

Just because the purpose and effect of two different things is the same...doesn't mean they are the same.

Really...I don't know the answer. Any lawyers (who will cop to that profession) here? Perhaps it's patent infringement...perhaps it's different enough not to be.

I will say this. In my eyes, it is different enough. If Ernie goes after the guy...my opinion of Ernie will go down (not that he cares). I may never buy another Emerson (not that it'll matter given my current unfortunate financial situation). I'll probably start trolling around posting nasty things about EKI. (Actually...I think that last position is taken...by several forumites...so nevermind).

I guess I'm really somewhat shocked that the first reaction to this is let's sue the little guy. Man...get some self-esteem people. The wave is not the single greatest invention in the history of knives. Don't act like a Holy War is about to start....
 
If a person sleeps on his rights, do not expect the court to do otherwise.

If you invent something and I copy it, and you do not enforce that pattent against me, then someone else copies the invention and you sue them they can use your first inactivity as a defense.

If you did not care then, why do you care now.

If you licenced me to use it, and then someone else used it without a licence they can not use my licence as a defence.

You can not pattent something that is already invented. I am sure saw blades were arround prior to spyderco. Serations already existed before the spyderco age.

The use of a hook to open a knife as it draws is something new. The person who thought it up first has the right to cash in on it as they please for a set number of years. Thats the pattent. Emerson thought it up, went throught the process and patented it. Its his property, and his decission to allow people to use it or not to.


As for framelocks, Benchmade, CRK&T, and elishewitz uses them too. Whoever thougth that idea up, and i think It may have Ron Lake or Michael Walker, I'm not sure who, and I think they may have had some kind of patent on it.
Whoever it was, unless every maker using it today has a licence to use it from the pattent holder, or the pattent expired, It does not matter.

Even if the pattent is in force, IF YOU SLEEP ON THE ASSERTION OF YOUR RIGHTS, DO NOT EXPECT A COURT TO DO OTHERWISE.

If you are a karate blackbelt in a kick ass style that ALWAYS WORKS, and you let someone hit you in the face with a brick, dont complain. If you let someone beat the crap out of you, even though you could have stopped it, Its going to be looked at as you allowed it.

I hoppe emerson DOES go after people using his design. If a small fry maker wants to do something illegal he can go bob for frenchfries in the deep fryer.
 
I'll cop to that profession. I'm in lawschool. I enjoy pulling low as much as the next vampire.

The language used by the patent is very similar to the language on Ray's page.

The application is identical.

The activation is the same.

Its a tatical folder, whatever that it, just like emersons.
Maybe its nicer, maybe i happen to like the butt ugly looks of a CQC-7.


If we put it to a jury, 12 people that think a Swiss army pen knife is the end all and be all of knives, and i put a commander in my pocket, wave it, then do the same with one of Ray's knives and ask them is it the same what are they going to say?

I'm sorry your opinion of emerson knives will decrease. It does not sound like you liked the company much anyway.

If EE does not go after people that violate his patent, his company is in deep do-do.

I think the pocket clip was the greatest invention in the knife world. the wave is #2.
 
You DO NOT need an Attorney to make a determination on THIS ISSUE.
A LAYPERSON, with a 12th grade education can CLEARLY see this as a PATENT INFRINGEMENT.

Just like medications. Catapres for example was the 'patented" trade name for Clonidine. UNTIL Expiration of the patent, NO ONE could manufacture this medication in any "style, shape, or form" if the intended result was the EXACT same at Catapres.

Your "opening device", no matter how different you have "designed it" does the EXACT SAME THING as the EMERSON WAVE.

Who needs an Attorney to see there is a very Blatant Patent Infringement here?. Who NEEDS an Attorney?........YOU!
Ira Migdal:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :mad: :p
 
The Patent:

>>United States Patent 5,878,500
Emerson March 9, 1999

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Self-opening folding knife


Abstract
A folding knife that is self opening when removed from a container such as a holster or pocket. The knife includes a handle and a knife blade with the blade hinged to the handle for folding from an extended, use, position to a stored position in a slot in the handle. A pin is formed on the knife blade adjacent to the hinged end, extending away from the blade when the blade is folded. When the knife is pulled from a container, the pin will snag the container just before the knife is fully removed, causing the blade to unfold to the use position. Preferably, the pin is hook-shaped with an end extending along the blade towards the blade tip. A releasable locking arrangement to lock the blade against folding while in use and for releasing the blade when desired for folding is preferably included.
 
Wolfman, I'm trying to cause litigation and put money in lawyers pockets.

If I start to allow people to decide things on their own then I may need to get alother line of work.

Everyone needs a Lawyer. <Mitch smiles and points a .357 magnum at you> Don't you see? Now repeat after me, "everyone needs an Lawyer"

Good, now keep repeating that mantra and you won't meet the team of ninja that I keep on retainer.

Now, allow these people to go to court, get no satisfaction and enrich the members of the bar.

Ok, I'll admit it, I'm gonna be a blood sucker living off human missery. But I'm gonna buy lots of emerson knives. :D
 
Originally posted by memnoch
I'm sorry your opinion of emerson knives will decrease. It does not sound like you liked the company much anyway.
Click to expand...

Actually, I like Emerson knives pretty well. Like any company...there are things I would change. The two I've owned...no complaints, however.

Sigh! I guess if he's really infringing...he should have the hammer dropped on him. Sigh! He's such a nice guy though. Sigh!

I have to admit...part of my problem is that I feel like a tattle tale...and that was not my intention over at Glock Talk in the thread listed below. (It's actually a pretty interesting thread. Check it out. Also, if y'all haven't checked out the entertaining off topic posts in the General Non-Glocking forum at GT...you are really missing something.) I kinda hope this is not where ROSANGHAL heard of Ray Rogers. Sigh!

http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59360

Sigh! I feel so dirty. Like a weasel. Sigh!

Say, menonch. I'm pleading ignorance here. At what stage does an innovation become different enough to avoid infringement. As an example. How does BM's oval hole avoid infringing on Spyderco's round hole? That seems closer to me than Ray's Thumb Hook relative to the wave...at least to me. And...Spyderco is suffering far more economic damage from BM than EKI ever will from a custom maker.

As an aside...I hate the oval hole...it causes thumb slippage and knife rotation in my hand as I open the knife. I also, if I'm honest, think Ray's Thumb Hook is somewhat less than aesthetically pleasing. It's kinda ugly. When I was thinking about buying from Ray...I was not, for what it's worth, going to have the Thumb Hook thing put on my knife. So...I guess originals are always the best...eh?
 
I am not a lawyer by any stretch of the imagination. However, I did recently find one point of interest regarding how manufacturers are trying to slip around the Wave patent. I was in a knife store the other day and was looking at the Cold Steel Ti-Lite. I did not realize that the "guards" on the blade are shaped as two "waves". Therefore when you pull the Ti-Lite from your pocket, one side of the guard acts as the wave and opens the blade. If the blade only had one hook shaped guard, it would clearly be a knock off of the Wave. But since their are two, it is called a hook shaped guard.

The sales person behind the counter was even presenting the knife as having a wave feature.
 
LynnBob, I am not an Attorney, but I think I can answer your question concerning Benchmade's use of the "Spyderco Hole".

Benchmade PAID Spyderco and were LICENSED to enjoy the patent rights owned by Sal and his Company. Believe me, Had Benchmade dissed Spyderco and infringed on the Patent, there WOULD HAVE been Litigation.

Benchmade did it the RIGHT way, Mr. Rogers is doing it the WRONG way........wolf
 
wolfmann601,

Right. I know they did that with the round hole on the AFCK's and such. I was, however, under the impression that Spyderco had stopped doing this. I thought that was why BM switched to the stupid oval hole. I don't think the oval hole is licensed. Am I wrong?
 
LynnBob,

Expiration of Patents was mentioned above. Spyderco's patent has expired. Having said that, Spyderco has since "Trademarked" the opening hole design.

When you patent something, it's your property.

Having someone rip it off and sell it to the public is little different then someone coming to your house, stealing you TV and selling it at a Flea Market. It is your property, plain and simple.

Spyderco does license other makers to use it's property and they get paid for that license. Ernest Emerson has decided (rightfully) that he does not wish to license the Wave. He is under no obligation to go so.

If your neighbor asks to borrow your car and you refuse, is it OK for him to come over in the night and steal it? Even if he's a good neighbor and a Hell of a guy?

How about the little crack head around the corner that will not even bother to ask, is it OK for him to steal your property?

Quote LynnBob:
If Emerson starts going after small fry custom makers for such things...then he's a small man indeed IMHO
Click to expand...

I'm sorry you feel that. My personal opinion is that a person's property is theirs to do with as they will. Mr. Emerson makes his living, feeds his family, pays for his children's schooling, pays his mortgage by making knives. Does he not have the right to protect that? Wouldn't you?

If you do a search here on BF.com, you will find time after time when "the little guy", and the "big guys" too, have taken liberties with Ernie's designs. Not only have they basically blueprinted his knives, one went so far as to out and out copy his freakin logo and put it on their version of his CQC7!!

As to this gentleman's version of the wave being an add on to the blade, the original wave was an add on piece. Little trivia for you there. Add on or not, it's still covered by the patent, plan and simple.

The idea and implementation of the wave is still the sole property of one man, Ernest Emerson. He has the right and in some peoples school of thought, the obligation to protect his property.

As to Mr. Roger's being a "Nice Guy". I'm sorry to that.

Someone once told me:
Quote:
In life your going to meet a lot of nice people. But if someone is nice to you, but treats others like sh*t, their not really a "Nice Guy", now are they?
Click to expand...
You'd think a "Nice Guy" would refrain from taking what didn't belong to him.

Just my opinion

John
 
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