Another "Which steel?" question

K

Kevin Deaton

Joined
May 7, 2000
Messages
121
I am having brain overload right now reading posts about the different blade materials. I have order a med Hunter from Neil Blackwood and I need to decide between D2 and Stellite 6K. Taking cost out of the equation, which material would have better edge retention without suffering significantly in toughness? I like the stain resistance of 6K, but that is not a huge factor to me if the D2 is going to excel in most other areas. The knife is going to be used to field dress game (white tail, elk, etc...) and for basic camp chores. Any info or direction to specific threads would be greatly appreciated.


Kevin

Thanks,
Kevin
 
Kevin,

While I have no field experience with Stellite 6K, I have many years' experience with D2. Many years ago I purchased a Bob Dozier Yukon Pro Skinner in D2, and what he does with D2 is simply amazing.

My knife will completely process -- field dress, cape/skin, and quarter -- five large deer before it needs any sharpening. It holds an edge far longer than ANY other knife/knife steel I have ever personally witnessed. It is easy to resharpen and to care for.

I highly recommend D2 steel in working knives which will be used for hunting. I have given Bob's knives in D2 steel away as gifts to family and friends, and I can offer no higherpraise than that.

Feel free to email me if you have specific questions.

No matter your choice, one of Neil's knives will serve you well for many years. Happy hunting!
smile.gif


AJ
 
I have been using folder with a talonite blade for a couple of months. I find that it loses its shaving edge fairly fast, but still cuts very well. When I examine the edge it looks like it has rolled over a bit.
I also find that it is very easy to get a hair popping edge back quickly.

I also have a small Dozier knife made of D2 that has cut uncounted (many) cardboard boxes and it still has the original edge and it still shaves.

Unless you are really worried about rust, I would go with D2, which doesn't seem very prone to rusting either.



------------------
Experience is what you get when you were expecting something else.
 
Easyrider,
That's funny! I suggested the same thing
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>>>EDIT:<<<
Please let me add this: Talonite and Stellite, although both cobalt based... are quite different. I found this the case IMMEDIATLY when I started working with my first piece of Stellite. Stellite also, based on my own testing is MUCH less likely to "roll the edge". It seems to me that Rc testing of the two is meaningless, Talonite behaves as if it's softer than Stellite. I think someone with a Phd in Metallurgy would have trouble describing this. I try to refer people to Cliff Stamp and Walt Welch's postings and Marion David Poffs Talonite page for a good source of information.

I tried to provide Kevin as much info as I could comparing D2 to Talonite. I also brought up the ease of field sharpening Talonite. Unfortunatly, I havn't had much time to test my own Stellite knife and probably wont until after the holidays. I've been grinding them with a more generous edge than my D2 knives. This was based on a lot of testing with scrap pieces. So far my stellite knife has held up VERY well to a lot of cardboard but that's it
rolleyes.gif
I'm looking forward to processing some hogs right after Christmas. That will be the ultimate test!
Neil
------------------
Talonite......Stellite
Knives in STOCK!! I just updated my website, PLEASE take a look
smile.gif



blackwoodknives.com

[This message has been edited by Dr.Lathe (edited 12-10-2000).]
 
Well I went with D2 on my first Blackwood. I'm still not convienced that Talonite is worth the premium. Of course if someone is willing to loan me a Blackwood med Hunter in Talonite I would be happy to do a head to head comparison.
smile.gif


Kevin
 
Yeah, I was thinking that after your done Kevin testing both the knives, you could give me the one you didn't like.
wink.gif
tongue.gif

 
Easyrider, you get someone to donate a Talonite blade for comparision work and I'll give you the "loser" when I'm done.
smile.gif


Kevin
 
Neil :

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Stellite also, based on my own testing is MUCH less likely to "roll the edge".</font>
Click to expand...

I have found the same thing comparing two Stellite 6K blades to two Talonite ones. Dendritic Cobalt is worse than either or them in terms of edge retention as it breaks apart readily as it very soft and weak.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Rc testing of the two is meaningless</font>
Click to expand...

It measures the compression resistance which as indicated by the RC is quite low. However you can't make generalizations across materials in terms of properties dependent on RC like strength and toughness as other things change as well.

This doesn't make RC meaningless as it does give useful information it just doesn't tell the whole picture. In terms of steels, W1 for example will be weaker than ATS-34 even with a significantly higher RC so it will roll faster. W1 will also be much tougher and more ductile even at a much higer RC and have a much lower wear resistance.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Talonite behaves as if it's softer than Stellite.</font>
Click to expand...

I discussed this with a couple of people from Deloro Stellite. They commented that they had tried age hardening and it gave little or no benefit which is why they went with the added Carbon. Carbide Processors (who make Talonite) of course say the opposite.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I also brought up the ease of field sharpening Talonite.</font>
Click to expand...

People really make too much of this. Yes you can easily restore Talonite with a smooth steel and/or a ceramic rod. You can do this with any quality steel as well unless it is breaking apart. I have been using the D2 blade you made for awhile now and a simple steeling and a few strokes on a ceramic rod are all that is needed to keep the edge razor sharp.

-Cliff
 
Cliff,
Thanks for bringing some proper technical input into this thread!! Putting anything technical into words in my downfall
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Part of what I meant about Rc testing on Talonite is that I never get the same results!! It varies +/- 3 points!! The same Rc tester provides +/-.5 readings on D2 or other steels at around the 60Rc range. Maybe I have to switch the scale to the durometer range used for testing rubber or skateboard wheels !!!!
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As far as field sharpening. I think one must take into consideration that not everyone is well practiced at it. I have local customers and friends that despite my best help, cannot put a sharp edge back on my D2 knives.... no matter how hard they try!!! Others have no problem at all. I feel the ones that are not as good at it would have an easier time with Talonite.
Working with Stellite is an ongoing lesson for me. This is why my first offerings have been heavier duty blades. The Small Game models I've made from it have rather sturdy blades also. I look forward to getting a better feel for the material and hopefully making some thinner hunter style blades from it.
Neil

------------------
Talonite......Stellite
Knives in STOCK!! I just updated my website, PLEASE take a look :)


blackwoodknives.com
 
Neil :

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Part of what I meant about Rc testing on Talonite is that I never get the same results!! It varies +/- 3 points!!</font>
Click to expand...

On various pieces or the same one in different places? Note the variation in carbon % in Talonite (and Stellite 6k) is huge compared to steel.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">As far as field sharpening. I think one must take into consideration that not everyone is well practiced at it.</font>
Click to expand...

Interesting comments, I have not noticed that. Much of what I have read about it is along the lines "it can be sharpened on easily on a ceramic rod" which implies that a steel blade would need to be honed on a stone, which isn't the case.

If they are having a lot of trouble with sharpening your D2 blades I would be curious to see what the edge looks like under a scope. Excessive edge damage makes light sharpening techniques like steeling and ceramic rods ineffective. Stellite 6K should resist this stronger than D2. Of course there are a slew of ductile and tough steels which will do the same thing.

-Cliff
 
D2 is a standard ingot steel. I do not know if it is purified by AOD (Argon Oxygen Decarburization), as is 154 CM, but it is certainly not purified by VIM-VAR (Vacuum Induction Melted - Vacuum Arc Remelted) as is BG-42.

This means that it is plain old steel. It is very similar from an elemental standpoint to ATS-55 (except it lacks Co and Cu), which you probably remember was an attempt to modify ATS-34 by reducing the Mo content, substituting Co and Cu. ATS-55 did not set the world on fire. In addition, Hitachi felt it necessary to add Co and Cu to ATS-55 to maintain the quality of the alloy, while D2 lacks these alloying elements.

To answer your original question, which alloy would be better in edge retention
without suffering significantly in toughness, hands down the Haynes alloys win.

You say you are going to use your knife to field dress game and for general camp chores. This seems to be a use much like a chef's knife. Here is what Nick Blinoff, who you recall, is a professional chef, has to say about his Talonite (r) chef's knife:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">In regards to the Talonite monster... It is still going strong! I still
am using it as my number one chopper everyday, and I am still an
enthusiastic Talonite supporter.... Boy does this stuff hold an edge or
what?

The only thing that is taking some getting used to is the technique of
sharpening the blade. I think I'm up to four times on the Edge pro ( not
bad for over a year! ).</font>
Click to expand...

Thus, if you were to use your knife daily, as Nick does, you might have to sharpen it every few MONTHS!! If the toughness issue is not adequately addressed by these data, then consider the many Stellite U2 dive knives made by Kit Carson. These are used by marine salvage divers; Kit has never had a knife returned for blade failure.

In addition, a Haynes alloy has a cachet which D2 completely lacks. You will be able to hold your head high in any company when you are carrying a Stellite or Talonite knife!
smile.gif


Here is a pic of some Talonite knives:
<A HREF="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=306668&a=2279510&p=34156956&Sequence=0&res=high" TARGET=_blank>
Thumbnail
</A>

From the top, a Kit Carson Large U2, a Tom Mayo drop point hunter, Kit's #18 folder with Ti scales, and a #16 slim folder with carbon fiber scales, a Darrel Ralph custom similar to an Apogee, and a Rob Simonich Cetan with Ti scales.

Hope this helps, Walt

[This message has been edited by Walt Welch (edited 12-11-2000).]
 
Walt, thanks for the info. I'm now thinking maybe Stellite would not be a bad choice. Do you have any opinions concerning Stellite 6k vs Talonite?

Kevin
 
stellite and talonite are simply no steel....they cut different. Steel cuts because it has small hard particles in a relativeley tough and hard iron matrix.
Stellite and talonite have much larger carbides in a much softer matrix. If fielddressing is your thing, talonite might be a better choice, since you need the knife to slice well, like a mini saw, which talonite nearly is. Stellite has even bigger carbides, so is like a rougher saw.
Personally, i'd choose D-3 or a powdersteel.
Also, look out which D-2 you take. Some D-2 kinds have got Molybdenum, vanadium, tungsten and cobalt, others don't. Up till now I found 4 D-2 kinds, Nr : 1.2201, 1.2379, 1.2601 and 1.2880.

greetz, Bart.
 
To UffDa: When the edge rolls over on your Talonite blade, will running it down a steel bring back the sharpness temporarily? I've never owned a talonite knife, and I'd like to expand my collection.--OKG
 
Cliff,
I found that Rc Testing on the Talonite results in various readings on the same piece. I was going to test some Stellite today but I forgot to put it in my pack. The Rc testers I use are at my full time job. I don't really pay much attention to the Rc numbers of these materials anyway because I don't heat treat them AND.... Compared to tool steels they are just plain SOFT!!!!
As far as the field sharpening. I think it has little to do with the blade materials OR the sharpening device. After MANY hours of trying to teach people how to hand sharpen, I feel that it's PURE dexterity!!! They either got it or that don't!! My only thought was that between D2, Stellite and Talonite....Talonite would be easiest to sharpen.

------------------
Talonite......Stellite
Knives in STOCK!! I just updated my website, PLEASE take a look :)


blackwoodknives.com
 
Stellite 6BH is the equivalent of Talonite, except for the hot rolling and age hardening of Talonite.

Kit Carson uses the two interchangeably. The main differences are things which would affect knife makers, not the users. For example, Talonite has more scale, and the billets can be warped. Both alloys tend to be hard to get from the distributors.

I have a Stellite knife; it is the carbon fiber folder in the above photo (I forgot it was Stellite). It has performed exactly as though it were Talonite.

The only practical difference between Stellite and Talonite which end users would experience is the pattern in the alloy which the hot rolling produces. This yields a 'grain'; a fine reticular (lacy) pattern in the blade which I find very attractive.

Hope this helps, Walt
 
Neil, that is interesting. The alloy% in the HPA like Stellite 6K and Talonite is insane compared to steels. I would wonder if you are just seeing the effect of a different carbide percentage at the various RC testing sites.

As for sharpening, when I lend someone a knife who can't sharpen a knife, or has a lot of trouble with it, I lend them a smooth steel and a fine ceramic rod after showing them how to use them. Unless they break the edge apart or otherwise damage it, any of the better tool steels will last a very long while before they need anything else.

When using a steel and/or ceramic rod when aligning is the main benefit, it is not even critical to get a specific angle (it just has to be above the edge bevel), nor even be consistent in the angle used (just makes more strokes necessary).

While these methods are not suitable for long term sharpening concerns, they however will extend the practical edge life of their blades for a long time, about 10x without them or so.

You could consider just making some steels and including them with your blades. Just use bar stock of W1 and temper it so it is 62+ RC. I would assume this wouldn't be that expensive. If you have a lathe you could even turn a nice pattern on it to serve as a more extensive sharpener on any of the softer steel blades you make.


As for the Cobalt alloys :

Cobalt 6BH has the same composition as Cobalt 6B, it however is heat treated (age hardened) whereas Cobalt 6B is not. Both are worked (rolled). Talonite is just a name for Cobalt 6BH made by Carbide Processors.

Stellite 6K has .5% more Carbon than Cobalt 6B, and is forged and rolled but not age hardened. Stellite is also just a trade name used on materials made by Deloro Stellite. Cobalt 6K and Stellite 6K are the same thing.

-Cliff


[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 12-13-2000).]
 
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