OBX351
Platinum Member
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2014
- Messages
- 1,137
I was watching Chamdar17's new 5.1 review and I saw a bunch of banter between him & mark marion in the comment section. Then I noticed he's posting some pretty negative and false info about S!K in the comment section. Most of these seem to be a cut and paste job. The banter with Chamdar are below along with the link to the review. I ran out of space when I included all the comments but you can go and see them in the comment section of the videos below. The funny thing is he really likes his 5.1 from the comments in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuFEhrvK3Xw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYWafo6EoTM
mark marion6 days ago (edited)
BUYER BEWARE !!
Great knife but the company has become a pyramid/ponzi scam.. They have been working well over a year (and counting) trickling out only ONE knife model.. meanwhile introduced 9 other fictional models with cad drawings and requirement "preorders" with payment in full up front. No one has held them to account for this ponzi scam because they have enough fanboys that support them, and by keep trickling out a few knives with an impossible backlog of already paid for knives.. the pyramid scheme continues.. It will fall (of course) but probably only once enough people realize they have been scammed. SK has almost NO overhead and outsource everything so once they decide to pull the plug on thier ponzi scam, they can just hide the money with no assets to seize.
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Reply
Chamdar17
Chamdar176 days ago
Pre-order is not a "requirement" of any kind. Where did you read that?
I have some of their knives on pre-order, and have received each knife that I ordered from them. Production seems to take a while, but they've never stiffed me and the product has always been exceptional.
They don't make the steel, roll the steel, cut the steel, or HT the steel, don't make the sheaths or the handle scales... and all that is true of MYRIAD makers/producers including many very popular brands. The money from the volunteer pre-orders is tied up in steel and partially finished knives, not exactly "hidden"... that's a bad way to run a "scam"
What they DO is design the knives, manage all those contractors, handle all customer service (including website updates), laser-engrave and "peen-finish" all the knives, build and sharpen and finish all the knives BY HAND including customizations... and they are 3 people, maybe now 4. Their output is THOUSANDS of knives per year, not exactly a "trickle". Oh, and they work with well-known professionals in the field developing new HT protocols. When you think about it, that's actually really quite impressive for such a small operation.
Buy with confidence
These may be the single best production knives on the market. But if you can't wait, then please please please don't "pre-order".
Read more
Reply 1
Chamdar17
Chamdar176 days ago
I deleted your reply for foul language and poor behavior. If you've had a problem with Survive!, spell it out. I haven't had any problems beyond delayed production, haven't lost a penny on them, and have bought directly from them on a number of occasions WITHOUT pre-order, knives they had in stock (rare now-a-days) and each time such orders arrived within a few weeks.
If you bother to follow them (you seem angry enough to), it's easy to track where their capital is invested, all very above-the-board. They take a while to produce each model, and they sell out fast when they do have some in stock. If you can't seem to get one direct from them, try the secondary market or be willing to "pre-order". Pre-order has never been a requirement, just an option for those interested. Whether you pre-order or not, you get the same great product, not cheap but well worth what it costs given the attention to detail. They could sell these for a LOT more, given what goes into them. shrug Buy what you like, and keep your butt-hurt nonsense to yourself.
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Reply 1
mark marion
mark marion6 days ago (edited)
Why are you defending the indefensible?
A- Survive's main sales IS preorder prepayment. They do have very rare small quantity 2nd's they sell.. true.. but their main sales is prepayment "preorders".. You can't just buy a 1rst direct.
B-Taking over one year to make ONE model when they have been taking preorder prepayments for 9 other models is just a lead up to a pyramid scam.
I wasn't criticizing the knife.. I was saying the company is running a pyramid scam. Where is their "capital" invested for nine models out they have taken prepayment on??
Hasn't been in buying machine equipment, they outsource everything.
Why not be honest with yourself and with people here and tell the WHOLE truth? They have been getting more and more behind production to the point of being hopelessly lost for money up front orders they have taken.
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Reply 1
Chamdar17
Chamdar176 days ago
The knives i bought direct were "factory firsts", these included NeckerII's and SK-4s. I guess the company wasn't as popular then? They had a "moving sale" when they left Pennsylvania, all were "1rsts". The whole concept of "factory second" from them is a joke, the one's I've seen are better finished than "firsts" from most other companies out there.
Here is their production schedule: http://surviveknives.com/production-schedule/
What you'll see is the stage of production for each model. You can contact their contractors to confirm (I have). They regularly post in-process pictures. They do NOT outsource "everything", only the major steps like I mentioned - making the steel, cutting it and HT, making the sheaths and handle-scales. The rest is all done in-house by the owner and his assistant and his wife (co-owner?). That's actually more than a lot of other knife companies. They have indeed purchased new equipment, even an entire building They are easy to track, as is their capital.
If they are running a scam, they are doing a pretty bad job of it.
The fact is, they stopped taking pre-orders, then started taking them again because of customer demand. Their being behind schedule is not exactly rare in industry, especially when you contract out, and also when the steps that you don't outsource are handled by so few. shrug Being behind schedule is not "indefensible". Taking money from people who literally demand that you do so is also not "indefensible". If they fail to deliver and try to disappear, they'll be crucified. But until then keep calm and carry on
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Reply
mark marion
mark marion6 days ago (edited)
Your BS may work for all the other fanboys or the casual knife shoppers that don't know any better but not me dude.
No.. They didn't start taking preorder-prepayment because of just customer demand. They started taking preorder pre payments because they needed to raise the capital to pay for the materials. They said this themselves! THATS a FACT. And have/doing so for NINE models now when they have taken over a year and still going just to make the Current Model! They are running a pyramid scam.. Didn't start out that way, but it turned into that. There is no possible hope they are going to get caught up to NINE knife models that are PREPAID when it takes them now over a YEAR for just one model. Trying to change the subject by stating what they did four years ago, or how awesome it is they sharpen the knives themselves is just lame.. it really is. For the record I probably have more SK knives then you do and have been following them, and buying them way before the move, so you may be able to BS non SK people but not me.. and People should know, if they want a SK knife, the safe way is to buy secondary market. Otherwise, they should know SK is running a pyramid scam right now taking money for future orders so far out they don't have a prayer of fulfilling. No amount of excuses, or past talk, or how awesome it is some sweet married couple outsource everything but gosh sharpen and ship the knives themselves deflects from the fact their Main sales/revenue is taking money for NineOrders of product that won't possibly be made in anyone acceptable timeframe and will one day come crashing down once the pyramid scam gets called in.. That day will come when enough non fanboys go WTF? after several years wait time and start demanding refunds.. Then the fanboys will be left holding their weenies and excuses flapping in the wind. Frankly I could care less if fanboys loose all their money, they deserve it. (a fool and their money) But people that are not fanboys should be told the truth and avoid SK preorders-prepayment like the plague.
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Reply 1
Chamdar17
Chamdar176 days ago
Seriously, no one is making anyone pre-order, much less buy anything Survive! related at all. What's the issue?
People go in for the pre-order because it is discounted and they are guaranteed a knife. So far, never heard of anyone not eventually getting their knife.
Ever heard of Randall Knives? I think their wait list is 10 years... might be 15 now. Survive! is currently at ~1 year. No, it didn't used to be that way, but how did it get that way? Not through a scam, just overly popular is all. shrug
If you're running a scam, you don't buy the materials with the capital.
Here is a place where Survive! states the purpose of the pre-orders:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-reasonable-and-legal?p=16181737#post16181737
I have heard MANY people literally demand that they take pre-orders. I could dig up places where Survive! stated the end of pre-ordering and then re-openned it by popular demand, but why bother? The "FACT" is that they did, and people bought in, and no one has ever yet been scammed by them.
Pre-orders are about to close on the last two models currently available to order. That's it.
If you've been scammed, you have a legitimate complaint, but you haven't, so what's up? Whining about long production times?? Then don't buy in. On the other hand, those that do have the patience easily make their money back = return on investment.
I'm not worried and see no reason why anyone else is. Yer flaming the company without evidence of wrong-doing. Take it elsewhere.
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Reply 1
mark marion
mark marion6 days ago (edited)
You obviously live in some fan-boy driven fantasy world. You try to defend the indefensible by deflecting to non relevant points. What the hell does Randall have to do with Survive knives?? Randall are not 10 years.. more like 5 and RANDALL DOESN'T REQUIRE UP FRONT FULL PAYMENT.. They do a small deposit. Randal makes the knives in house and by hand, SK are machined production knives outsources almost everything... So once again, you just bring up non relevant points and can't deal with the fact Survive is running a scam of selling and taking money for orders they can't possibly provide. It's a house of cards pyramid scheme. Survive isn't running one year behind.. they are running 10 years behind by their own growing lead times. People are not going to wait 10 years for something they already paid for.. survive will not be around in 10 years.. is it really that hard to comprehend? Do the rules of common sense, economics not exist in your fanboy little world?
Buy with confidence?? are you for real? If I through a ball up in the air are you going to tell me it's going upward and will never fall to earth because it hasn't happened yet?
Point is to warn people not to buy preorders.. Yes Buy on ebay if you want.. not preorders-prepayement.
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Reply
Chamdar17
Chamdar176 days ago
Hey, you're right, Randall is at 5 years! :thumbup: With $50 non-refundable prepayment. And you can only order 1 knife per household? every 3 months. And that's all of their direct sales, nothing else available except secondary market (dealers, individuals). You might want to research how much of their production is "by hand" and how that differs from the work Survive! does "by hand". The only outsourcing at Survive! is the heavy machining - forging, cutting, and HTing the steel; generating the scales and fasteners, generating the sheaths. All else (and there is a LOT 'else') is done in house by those 3-4 people, with all of the sharpening being done by a single person (Guy). Delays are the result of 1) delays at the contractors and 2) bottle-neck at the shop when hundreds of HT'd blades show up for processing. All of this is well published. They don't advertise anymore, don't have dealers, and stopped taking pre-orders when the back-log got big. They re-opened pre-orders NOT to keep the company going but by popular demand (again, well published).
Just like Randall, they could hire more people but good people are hard to find.
Randall employs 20 people just to make the knives, they put out ~8,000/year (effectively 1 knife per craftsman per day). They are consistently ~40,000 knives behind. incredible product! But if you cannot wait 5 years for your pre-order, you lose $50 per knife. shrug
Survive! outsources the heavy machining but does the rest in house, 3-4 people, putting out thousands of knives per year, currently running ~1 year behind. Incredible product! But if you cannot wait ~1 year (may end up being longer for some models) for your pre-order, you lose NOTHING, simply ask for a refund. shrug
Chris Reeve Knives is another company you might enjoy researching - their origins, early production problems, predictions of their demise, etc. etc.
I have no problem pre-ordering from Survive! and no problem recommending it to others. But it does take patience and faith in the company. If lacking the former, just buy one when they are in-stock ("Monday Sales") or off someone on facebook or bladeforums (NEVER ebay - talk about buyer-beware!!).
Survive! has been around for only ~4 years and is KILLING IT with their quality at the price point. :thumbup: But if you can't handle waiting another year, don't pre-order ANY model from them, because you're not likely to see it in <12 months ; )
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Reply 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbtlXYYvvbI
mark marion6 days ago (edited)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZYnmw8CVeg
mark marion6 days ago (edited)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wec0l-t_giI
mark marion2 days ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYmyjtL1q6w
mark marion1 week ago (edited)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYWafo6EoTM
mark marion6 days ago (edited)
BUYER BEWARE !!
Great knife but the company has become a pyramid/ponzi scam.. They have been working well over a year (and counting) trickling out only ONE knife model.. meanwhile introduced 9 other fictional models with cad drawings and requirement "preorders" with payment in full up front. No one has held them to account for this ponzi scam because they have enough fanboys that support them, and by keep trickling out a few knives with an impossible backlog of already paid for knives.. the pyramid scheme continues.. It will fall (of course) but probably only once enough people realize they have been scammed. SK has almost NO overhead and outsource everything so once they decide to pull the plug on thier ponzi scam, they can just hide the money with no assets to seize.
Read more
Reply
Chamdar17
Chamdar176 days ago
Pre-order is not a "requirement" of any kind. Where did you read that?
I have some of their knives on pre-order, and have received each knife that I ordered from them. Production seems to take a while, but they've never stiffed me and the product has always been exceptional.
They don't make the steel, roll the steel, cut the steel, or HT the steel, don't make the sheaths or the handle scales... and all that is true of MYRIAD makers/producers including many very popular brands. The money from the volunteer pre-orders is tied up in steel and partially finished knives, not exactly "hidden"... that's a bad way to run a "scam"
What they DO is design the knives, manage all those contractors, handle all customer service (including website updates), laser-engrave and "peen-finish" all the knives, build and sharpen and finish all the knives BY HAND including customizations... and they are 3 people, maybe now 4. Their output is THOUSANDS of knives per year, not exactly a "trickle". Oh, and they work with well-known professionals in the field developing new HT protocols. When you think about it, that's actually really quite impressive for such a small operation.
Buy with confidence
These may be the single best production knives on the market. But if you can't wait, then please please please don't "pre-order".Read more
Reply 1
Chamdar17
Chamdar176 days ago
I deleted your reply for foul language and poor behavior. If you've had a problem with Survive!, spell it out. I haven't had any problems beyond delayed production, haven't lost a penny on them, and have bought directly from them on a number of occasions WITHOUT pre-order, knives they had in stock (rare now-a-days) and each time such orders arrived within a few weeks.
If you bother to follow them (you seem angry enough to), it's easy to track where their capital is invested, all very above-the-board. They take a while to produce each model, and they sell out fast when they do have some in stock. If you can't seem to get one direct from them, try the secondary market or be willing to "pre-order". Pre-order has never been a requirement, just an option for those interested. Whether you pre-order or not, you get the same great product, not cheap but well worth what it costs given the attention to detail. They could sell these for a LOT more, given what goes into them. shrug Buy what you like, and keep your butt-hurt nonsense to yourself.
Read more
Reply 1
mark marion
mark marion6 days ago (edited)
Why are you defending the indefensible?
A- Survive's main sales IS preorder prepayment. They do have very rare small quantity 2nd's they sell.. true.. but their main sales is prepayment "preorders".. You can't just buy a 1rst direct.
B-Taking over one year to make ONE model when they have been taking preorder prepayments for 9 other models is just a lead up to a pyramid scam.
I wasn't criticizing the knife.. I was saying the company is running a pyramid scam. Where is their "capital" invested for nine models out they have taken prepayment on??
Hasn't been in buying machine equipment, they outsource everything.
Why not be honest with yourself and with people here and tell the WHOLE truth? They have been getting more and more behind production to the point of being hopelessly lost for money up front orders they have taken.
Show less
Reply 1
Chamdar17
Chamdar176 days ago
The knives i bought direct were "factory firsts", these included NeckerII's and SK-4s. I guess the company wasn't as popular then? They had a "moving sale" when they left Pennsylvania, all were "1rsts". The whole concept of "factory second" from them is a joke, the one's I've seen are better finished than "firsts" from most other companies out there.
Here is their production schedule: http://surviveknives.com/production-schedule/
What you'll see is the stage of production for each model. You can contact their contractors to confirm (I have). They regularly post in-process pictures. They do NOT outsource "everything", only the major steps like I mentioned - making the steel, cutting it and HT, making the sheaths and handle-scales. The rest is all done in-house by the owner and his assistant and his wife (co-owner?). That's actually more than a lot of other knife companies. They have indeed purchased new equipment, even an entire building
They are easy to track, as is their capital.If they are running a scam, they are doing a pretty bad job of it.
The fact is, they stopped taking pre-orders, then started taking them again because of customer demand. Their being behind schedule is not exactly rare in industry, especially when you contract out, and also when the steps that you don't outsource are handled by so few. shrug Being behind schedule is not "indefensible". Taking money from people who literally demand that you do so is also not "indefensible". If they fail to deliver and try to disappear, they'll be crucified. But until then keep calm and carry on
Read more
Reply
mark marion
mark marion6 days ago (edited)
Your BS may work for all the other fanboys or the casual knife shoppers that don't know any better but not me dude.
No.. They didn't start taking preorder-prepayment because of just customer demand. They started taking preorder pre payments because they needed to raise the capital to pay for the materials. They said this themselves! THATS a FACT. And have/doing so for NINE models now when they have taken over a year and still going just to make the Current Model! They are running a pyramid scam.. Didn't start out that way, but it turned into that. There is no possible hope they are going to get caught up to NINE knife models that are PREPAID when it takes them now over a YEAR for just one model. Trying to change the subject by stating what they did four years ago, or how awesome it is they sharpen the knives themselves is just lame.. it really is. For the record I probably have more SK knives then you do and have been following them, and buying them way before the move, so you may be able to BS non SK people but not me.. and People should know, if they want a SK knife, the safe way is to buy secondary market. Otherwise, they should know SK is running a pyramid scam right now taking money for future orders so far out they don't have a prayer of fulfilling. No amount of excuses, or past talk, or how awesome it is some sweet married couple outsource everything but gosh sharpen and ship the knives themselves deflects from the fact their Main sales/revenue is taking money for NineOrders of product that won't possibly be made in anyone acceptable timeframe and will one day come crashing down once the pyramid scam gets called in.. That day will come when enough non fanboys go WTF? after several years wait time and start demanding refunds.. Then the fanboys will be left holding their weenies and excuses flapping in the wind. Frankly I could care less if fanboys loose all their money, they deserve it. (a fool and their money) But people that are not fanboys should be told the truth and avoid SK preorders-prepayment like the plague.
Show less
Reply 1
Chamdar17
Chamdar176 days ago
Seriously, no one is making anyone pre-order, much less buy anything Survive! related at all. What's the issue?
People go in for the pre-order because it is discounted and they are guaranteed a knife. So far, never heard of anyone not eventually getting their knife.
Ever heard of Randall Knives? I think their wait list is 10 years... might be 15 now. Survive! is currently at ~1 year. No, it didn't used to be that way, but how did it get that way? Not through a scam, just overly popular is all. shrug
If you're running a scam, you don't buy the materials with the capital.
Here is a place where Survive! states the purpose of the pre-orders:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-reasonable-and-legal?p=16181737#post16181737
I have heard MANY people literally demand that they take pre-orders. I could dig up places where Survive! stated the end of pre-ordering and then re-openned it by popular demand, but why bother? The "FACT" is that they did, and people bought in, and no one has ever yet been scammed by them.
Pre-orders are about to close on the last two models currently available to order. That's it.
If you've been scammed, you have a legitimate complaint, but you haven't, so what's up? Whining about long production times?? Then don't buy in. On the other hand, those that do have the patience easily make their money back = return on investment.
I'm not worried and see no reason why anyone else is. Yer flaming the company without evidence of wrong-doing. Take it elsewhere.
Read more
Reply 1
mark marion
mark marion6 days ago (edited)
You obviously live in some fan-boy driven fantasy world. You try to defend the indefensible by deflecting to non relevant points. What the hell does Randall have to do with Survive knives?? Randall are not 10 years.. more like 5 and RANDALL DOESN'T REQUIRE UP FRONT FULL PAYMENT.. They do a small deposit. Randal makes the knives in house and by hand, SK are machined production knives outsources almost everything... So once again, you just bring up non relevant points and can't deal with the fact Survive is running a scam of selling and taking money for orders they can't possibly provide. It's a house of cards pyramid scheme. Survive isn't running one year behind.. they are running 10 years behind by their own growing lead times. People are not going to wait 10 years for something they already paid for.. survive will not be around in 10 years.. is it really that hard to comprehend? Do the rules of common sense, economics not exist in your fanboy little world?
Buy with confidence?? are you for real? If I through a ball up in the air are you going to tell me it's going upward and will never fall to earth because it hasn't happened yet?
Point is to warn people not to buy preorders.. Yes Buy on ebay if you want.. not preorders-prepayement.
Read more
Reply
Chamdar17
Chamdar176 days ago
Hey, you're right, Randall is at 5 years! :thumbup: With $50 non-refundable prepayment. And you can only order 1 knife per household? every 3 months. And that's all of their direct sales, nothing else available except secondary market (dealers, individuals). You might want to research how much of their production is "by hand" and how that differs from the work Survive! does "by hand". The only outsourcing at Survive! is the heavy machining - forging, cutting, and HTing the steel; generating the scales and fasteners, generating the sheaths. All else (and there is a LOT 'else') is done in house by those 3-4 people, with all of the sharpening being done by a single person (Guy). Delays are the result of 1) delays at the contractors and 2) bottle-neck at the shop when hundreds of HT'd blades show up for processing. All of this is well published. They don't advertise anymore, don't have dealers, and stopped taking pre-orders when the back-log got big. They re-opened pre-orders NOT to keep the company going but by popular demand (again, well published).
Just like Randall, they could hire more people but good people are hard to find.
Randall employs 20 people just to make the knives, they put out ~8,000/year (effectively 1 knife per craftsman per day). They are consistently ~40,000 knives behind. incredible product! But if you cannot wait 5 years for your pre-order, you lose $50 per knife. shrug
Survive! outsources the heavy machining but does the rest in house, 3-4 people, putting out thousands of knives per year, currently running ~1 year behind. Incredible product! But if you cannot wait ~1 year (may end up being longer for some models) for your pre-order, you lose NOTHING, simply ask for a refund. shrug
Chris Reeve Knives is another company you might enjoy researching - their origins, early production problems, predictions of their demise, etc. etc.
I have no problem pre-ordering from Survive! and no problem recommending it to others. But it does take patience and faith in the company. If lacking the former, just buy one when they are in-stock ("Monday Sales") or off someone on facebook or bladeforums (NEVER ebay - talk about buyer-beware!!).
Survive! has been around for only ~4 years and is KILLING IT with their quality at the price point. :thumbup: But if you can't handle waiting another year, don't pre-order ANY model from them, because you're not likely to see it in <12 months ; )
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Reply 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbtlXYYvvbI
mark marion6 days ago (edited)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZYnmw8CVeg
mark marion6 days ago (edited)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wec0l-t_giI
mark marion2 days ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYmyjtL1q6w
mark marion1 week ago (edited)
)
