Anti scale coatings

silver_pilate

silver_pilate

Joined
Oct 30, 2002
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From what I've been able to search out through Google, it's been around 6 months or so since I've seen any threads on anti-scale compounds. I'll be using foil and plate quenches for my stainless, but I'm looking for something to use for my O-1 blades to keep 'em nice and pretty through a 10 minute soak at 1450. I would prefer to finish down pretty close to final, and I hate to think about any decarb going on at the edge.

From what I've seen in the past, PBC tends to be the old standby leader. However, I know you have to sift the compound well and make sure you get uniform coverage while the blade is near 600 degrees.

There have been several liquid compounds to show up out there. Mixed results from what I've read. The idea of coating a clean blade at room temperature and then heat treating without worry of decarb/scale really appeals to me. Anyone have any experiences with these compounds?

I've even read that white-out can work with 3 coats dried at room temp? Anyone tried this?

Thanks!

--nathan
 
I'm going to start using pcb but I've heard you can use a boiling borax mixture, dip 3-5 times letting the coating buildup. I'm not sure what the ratio is though but my bad memory says something like 1:3 borax water.

Edited to add:

After some research the borax is 1:2, 5 seconds between dips, about 15 or so dips.

There's also some discussion about using ivory soap as a antiscale compound. Apparently they use it when they make tang stamps.

One other suggestion, this is rather old school, is to use a large diameter threaded pipe nipple. Put a piece of charcoal in the tube, put threaded caps on, tight on one end and just 2-3 threads so you can get it off quickly to quench. The idea is that the charcoal burning will burn out the oxygen in the tube preventing scale.


I plan on building a salt pot one day when I get over my fears of being burned to death in the ensuing water explosion. When I was young I used to do commercial roofing, we were doing a job on a large 1 story commercial building. Someone didn't cap the pipe and water got into it. When the guy hit the rope to start the pump the pipe exploded, he got burned over 70% of his body. Most of us jumped off the building, a few broken legs and ankles.

I hope this helps.
 
silver_pilate said:
From what I've been able to search out through Google, it's been around 6 months or so since I've seen any threads on anti-scale compounds. I'll be using foil and plate quenches for my stainless, but I'm looking for something to use for my O-1 blades to keep 'em nice and pretty through a 10 minute soak at 1450. I would prefer to finish down pretty close to final, and I hate to think about any decarb going on at the edge.

From what I've seen in the past, PBC tends to be the old standby leader. However, I know you have to sift the compound well and make sure you get uniform coverage while the blade is near 600 degrees.

There have been several liquid compounds to show up out there. Mixed results from what I've read. The idea of coating a clean blade at room temperature and then heat treating without worry of decarb/scale really appeals to me. Anyone have any experiences with these compounds?

I've even read that white-out can work with 3 coats dried at room temp? Anyone tried this?

Thanks!

--nathan
Click to expand...
Let us know what you find out about the liquid because while PCB works well most of the time, it can flake off during soaking in an oven and clay doesn't seem to want to stick to it very well.
 
I hope this is all right to cross post but this is what Don Fogg is using and his exact quote.

I have been using a product from Advanced Technical Products called ATP-641 that is designed to protect against scaling. You paint it on and dry it and it makes a non-toxic clay coating that is very effective. I got on to them from Industrial Heating magazine. You can buy it in pint sizes to try or 55 gallon drums if you really like it. Contact Tim Connor

Talk to Tim about what you are doing and he will set you up with the right stuff.
 
Phil Wilson reccomends "Turco" but I haven't been able to find any...K & G is out and doesn't know when they'll get any...does anybody know where to get it? Bill
 
Guess I should mention, I'm using a home built oven for heat treats. It seals pretty tight, but not air tight. Also, I'm using oil quenching steels.

I'll see if I can look up the ATP product. I've read about Turco, but seems like there were mixed results if I remember correctly.

Thanks guys!

--nathan
 
I use PBC. It works well in 60% of my HTs. Sometimes it comes off right in the oven and leaves ugly spots. I tried borax\water dipping with not much of a success, it flows away in the oven, too liquid when molten.
I tried clay, it needs some binder or it cracks otherwise. Planning to try japanese style. A mix of ash, clay and organic matter like flour or ground grass. Originaly it is rice husk I think.
Pipe with some charcoal works well, except it takes time to open it and get the piece out. And during this operation the piece is getting unevely cooler and warps sometime. I use this method for air hardening steels like A2, it does not warp much.
 
silver_pilate said:
I've even read that white-out can work with 3 coats dried at room temp? Anyone tried this?
Click to expand...

I did. Don't :(:thumbdn: The blades didn't stay all that clean and they didn't harden fully. The not hardening was probably some other mistake of mine, but I swear that I did everything else just the same as I normally do.

These were thin O1 blades: 1/16 - 1/8
 
I've looked a bit, but can't find anything on ATP. Don't know if they sold out or went under. All the web links I can find don't lead anywhere, and I can't find them in google.

I'd almost rather have consistent results with no protection and more finish grinding, than to have inconsistent results with very little tolerance to correct it. Is it crazy that the best solution may be argon flooding? :eek:

BTW, does anyone have experience in the use of argon to flood ovens? How long does a tank last at a low flow, and how much to get refilled?

--nathan
 
Nathan, search for "advancetechnicalprod.com" , phone # 1 800 761 0589. As to argon flooding, I was thinkin of tryin it too...just use a tig regulator and dribble it into the muffle low down on the back side and have a vent hole hi on the front to let air out. My big tig bottle cost about sixty to fill now but ya should be able to get a little bottle fairly reasonable at a welding store. Bill
 
Will Leavitt said:
I hope this is all right to cross post but this is what Don Fogg is using and his exact quote.

I have been using a product from Advanced Technical Products called ATP-641 that is designed to protect against scaling. You paint it on and dry it and it makes a non-toxic clay coating that is very effective. I got on to them from Industrial Heating magazine. You can buy it in pint sizes to try or 55 gallon drums if you really like it. Contact Tim Connor

Talk to Tim about what you are doing and he will set you up with the right stuff.
Click to expand...

I have a jar of the stuff from ATP. I would be more than happy to send it to the first bidder that offers anything of value. Please make sure it is something I can sell, that way I can buy more PBC. The ATP sales staff was incredibly great. Their product sucks.
Matt
 
Didn't work well for you, Matt? Yep, me incredible psychic powers are serving me well again. I somehow get the feeling you had bad experiences :D.

What kind of problems did you run into and at what kind of temps?

Looks like PBC and preheating the blade for application is going to be the way to go. Also, might look further into the argo setup.

Thanks!

--nathan
 
I have had pretty good luck with ATP. I have used it on ATS34 fired at 1950 degrees. I had a lot of problems at first by painting it on and just dipping the blades in it, but then i started to use a cheap gravity fed spray gun. I warm the knives up with the heat gun and spray a very thin coat. I spray 4 coats total and get very little scaling. You can buy it from brownells for $15.00.

-John
 
I have a vast experience of HTing 4 0-1 blades.
I use a slurry of santanite and let it dry. The "crust"
chips/falls off after HT, the blades with very little discoloration
and no scale
 
silver_pilate said:
Didn't work well for you, Matt? Yep, me incredible psychic powers are serving me well again. I somehow get the feeling you had bad experiences :D.

What kind of problems did you run into and at what kind of temps?

Looks like PBC and preheating the blade for application is going to be the way to go. Also, might look further into the argo setup.

Thanks!

--nathan
Click to expand...

Nathan
I bought it as an alternative for foil wrap to be used w/ stainless. I thought the fact that I could use it on my carbon blades would be a plus because I would only need one product. Well, as with everything else, if it seems too good to be true it probably is... I tried it on a piece of stainless@ a lower temp than recommended for hardening because i was scared of ruining the bar. I think my temp was around 1700 but can't remember now for certain.
It failed miserably, even though i tried meticulously to follow the directions completely, even calling the company for advice. It took a surface grinder to get the scale off of my bar.
I believe Dan Gray is, or at least was, using it on his carbon blades @ 1500 w/at least some success, but PBC has yet to fail me, EVER, and it would take a lot to make me switch now.
Seriously if you want the ATP I have, offer me something for it and it's yours, but if all you are doing is carbon I would stick with PBC. I use it @800 instead of 600, and make sure your blade is absolutely clean, (acetone then alchohol) before hand, use two coats, and you will have no problems. When I put a blade in @ 400 grit finish, it comes out @ 400 grit finish.
I have not tried Turco, but I have heard good things of it....
Matt
 
I like the ATP stuff alot, especially because I live 15 minutes away from them, it does work best if you heat the blade a little before applying it.
 
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