Any drawbacks to running a 4-6 inch outdoor AEB-L or 14C28N blade hard, say 63 or 64 HRC?

HPD

HPD

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I'm pretty conservative, but I'm thinking these sister steels have enough toughness to handle being run at this hardness. I don't see a lot of guys doing this for an outdoor blade. Most guys, myself included, seem to shoot for 60-62. How thin behind the edge and how low of an angle would you go? I'm not planning on any significant chopping, just the usual twist cuts, light wood splitting for kindling, rope cutting, food prep, gutting fish, skinning. The blade will be under 1/8-inch thickness.
 
You should chat up Dave Ferry at Horsewright Horsewright Knives, who runs his AEB-L at 63-64 HRC; and they hold up quite well. He says he's maybe had only 5-6 come back over several years after someone snapped the tip and such, out of hundreds (if not thousands) that have been sold. He's here on this forum.

I have 3 of his knives, a 2.25" blade Cowboy, a 2.625" blade Paisano, and a 2.75" Paisano in AEB-L, but have only carried the Cowboy. The AEBL does very well, and I have only had to strop the edge back with diamond spray and leather so far.

I think it would be just fine - AEB-L is pretty tough and stainless, but edge retention is maybe slightly better than 14C28N. I think 14C28N is slightly more corrosion resistant. I don't know anything about running 14C28N hard though.
 
Not sure on aebl but I believe 14c can go a bit higher. 63 might be fine for it. 14c has better corrosion resistance and ever so slightly better edge retention but close.
 
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Be smart, I wouldn't pry, but ya can run it pretty hard.
I'll careful baton at those ranges.

My 13" chopper is beaten at 62

A knife at 63-64 is golden
 
It’s about 1/3 as tough at that hardness but still tougher than most stainless steels.

Hoss
 
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Depends on how you are going to use the knife and how thick the edge is. You will not know until you try. Issue is going to be scooping cuts into wood where there is a side load on the edge that can lead to micro chipping. Personally I am happy with 62 Rc and don't see a reason to raise hardness for on outdoor knife.

For 14C28N I use 1935°F with 15 minute soak and cryo with 300°F temper to get 63 Rc for kitchen knives.
 
Seedy Lot said:
Depends on how you are going to use the knife and how thick the edge is. You will not know until you try. Issue is going to be scooping cuts into wood where there is a side load on the edge that can lead to micro chipping. Personally I am happy with 62 Rc and don't see a reason to raise hardness for on outdoor knife.

For 14C28N I use 1935°F with 15 minute soak and cryo with 300°F temper to get 63 Rc for kitchen knives.
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How thin behind the edge are you going on those kitchen knives, and what angle are you using? That might be a good baseline to work back from for an outdoor knife.
 
Antonymous said:
Not sure on aebl but I believe 14c can go a bit higher no problem. 63-64 should be fine for it. 14c has better corrosion resistance and ever so slightly better edge retention but close.
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Yep. I just looked upon the knifenerds website edge retention vs HRC and 14C28N at 62 will cut with a CATRA test TCC of 420 which AEB-L at a higher 63.5 HRC will cut the same 420 on the CATRA test.

At the same 62 HRC for both the 14C28N has about 10-15% better edge retention.

On another chart, they both have a toughness of 9/10, and an edge retention of 3/10. 14C28N has a corrosion resistance of 8.5/10 vs 7/10, assuming optimal heat treatment.

Charts from knifeNerds dot com that I referenced.

CK1lb4V.jpeg

lHm275o.jpg

djOyhWn.jpeg
 
DevinT said:
It’s about 1/3 as tough at that hardness but still tougher than most stainless steels.

Hoss
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So about the same as A2 at around 60 Rockwell I believe.
 
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DocJekl said:
Yep. I just looked upon the knifenerds website edge retention vs HRC and 14C28N at 62 will cut with a CATRA test TCC of 420 which AEB-L at a higher 63.5 HRC will cut the same 420 on the CATRA test.

At the same 62 HRC for both the 14C28N has about 10-15% better edge retention.

On another chart, they both have a toughness of 9/10, and an edge retention of 3/10. 14C28N has a corrosion resistance of 8.5/10 vs 7/10, assuming optimal heat treatment.

Charts from knifeNerds dot com that I referenced.

CK1lb4V.jpeg

lHm275o.jpg

djOyhWn.jpeg
Click to expand...
Yeah, I also looked at those charts this evening. If you look up the 14C28N data he apparently used for that TTC chart, he used 2000F/375F with 20 min. soak and cryo to get that CATRA result. I'm skeeeered of retained austenite since I can only get down to -100F. In another article he said that 14C28N likely has less wear resistance: "14C28N is a steel where they took a different track; rather than increasing the hardness of 13C26 [same as AEB-L], they modified the steel to have a similar hardness and carbide content but with increased chromium in solution. So they dropped the carbon content, increased the chromium, and substituted the carbon with nitrogen. Thermodynamic calculations confirm an increase in chromium in solution, though it also shows a reduction in carbide content which likely means that the wear resistance of 14C28N is somewhat lower than 13C26." The operative word there is "likely," so maybe it turns out that 14C28N does actually have more wear resistance. That would be awesome if true https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/09/17/nitrogen-alloyed-knife-steels/ So...not sure if it's really worth it to buy some 14C28N when I already have a few bars of AEB-L laying around, but I've definitely been considering it. Not sure if I'll notice any real world difference though.
 
I think people are spending far too much time seeking the hardest edge and missing the best overall knife.
Numbers are just numbers, they aren't knives. Performance and reliability are what matters. Before folks had readily available hardness testers no one cared if it was Rc62 or Rc64. Both were hard.
Look at the charts and find the sweet spot where hardness and toughness meet. If it is 62 ... fine, if it is 60 ... fine. You or a user will not see any difference in use in the two when cutting kindling or gutting a pike. What you may see is a broken blade if the hardness is considered more important than the toughness.

I remember when most all knives were mid-Rc50's. Everyone thought that was perfectly fine. I agree that Rc60 is better than Rc55 because it will not need sharpening as soon, but the difference between Rc60-62 and Rc 63-64 is not a performance noticeable difference. You can show the difference in repeat cut testing, but when was the last time you went camping and had to cut a rope 1000 times and then shave your arm?

I feel that in carbon steels a balance of toughness and hardness should be weighted on the toughness side and in stainless steels it is corrosion resistance vs hardness.
Personally, I have increased my standard blade hardness from 59-60 to 61-62. However, it is a rare knife I push to 64 unless there is a very special reason like a special alloy (MagnaCut).

I also feel that mastering a couple steels is far better than using many steels with unpredictable results. I use mainly three stainless steels - AEB-L, S35-VN, and Magnacut. For carbon, and mainly W2, 26C3. and a Tungsten alloy like Wolfram Special. Those six steels will perform well, and I know my HT protocol.




Just a fun romp through my past - How many of you remember when the go-to sharpener for a razor-edged knife was a stack of hardened W-2 washers???
$5 cost and they lasted 50 years. They sharpened Rc5-565 blades in seconds with a hollow ground edge.

1719399249909.png.
 
My mom still has my grandmother's sharpener like that in her junk drawer...
 
HPD said:
Yeah, I also looked at those charts this evening. If you look up the 14C28N data he apparently used for that TTC chart, he used 2000F/375F with 20 min. soak and cryo to get that CATRA result. I'm skeeeered of retained austenite since I can only get down to -100F. In another article he said that 14C28N likely has less wear resistance: "14C28N is a steel where they took a different track; rather than increasing the hardness of 13C26 [same as AEB-L], they modified the steel to have a similar hardness and carbide content but with increased chromium in solution. So they dropped the carbon content, increased the chromium, and substituted the carbon with nitrogen. Thermodynamic calculations confirm an increase in chromium in solution, though it also shows a reduction in carbide content which likely means that the wear resistance of 14C28N is somewhat lower than 13C26." The operative word there is "likely," so maybe it turns out that 14C28N does actually have more wear resistance. That would be awesome if true https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/09/17/nitrogen-alloyed-knife-steels/ So...not sure if it's really worth it to buy some 14C28N when I already have a few bars of AEB-L laying around, but I've definitely been considering it. Not sure if I'll notice any real world difference though.
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14C28N is an improved AEB-L by the company formerly know as Sandvik. In the grand scheme of knife steel they are basically the same for field performance but I have had knife clients who live in rusty environments and they tell me they notice a difference in corrosion resistance between the two with 14C28N being more stain resistance.

I would never use 2000°F for these steels, way to hot in my mind and from coupons that I ran. For 14C28N max hardness with cryo was 64 Rc with a 1950°F oven and 300°F temper.

I convex grind so don't have a primary bevel angle but shoot for between 0.010-0.015 bte, depending on knife, with a v microbevel of 15dps.

Only way you are going to know what works for you is try and test with plenty of long term usage.
 
Seedy Lot said:
14C28N is an improved AEB-L by the company formerly know as Sandvik. In the grand scheme of knife steel they are basically the same for field performance but I have had knife clients who live in rusty environments and they tell me they notice a difference in corrosion resistance between the two with 14C28N being more stain resistance.

I would never use 2000°F for these steels, way to hot in my mind and from coupons that I ran. For 14C28N max hardness with cryo was 64 Rc with a 1950°F oven and 300°F temper.

I convex grind so don't have a primary bevel angle but shoot for between 0.010-0.015 bte, depending on knife, with a v microbevel of 15dps.

Only way you are going to know what works for you is try and test with plenty of long term usage.
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Thanks.
 
After a lot of reading and thinking, I'm sticking with AEB-L. I even got some more flat-ground bars from AKS. They have a minimum order of $35 but free shipping, and their flat-ground pieces are a great value. I'll do a 1750 pre-quench and shoot for 64 HRC, choose an edge geometry and go for it. You only live once.
 
I have made a lot of knives from AEB-L. Most, while not really considered "outdoor" knives, make a living outdoors. Peter's does my ht and I'm having them shoot for 62-63RC with AEB-L. As someone mentioned I've fixed a few broken tips and we all pretty much know how that happens. No catastrophic failures that I know of.
 
I usually shoot for 63HRC with AEBL. However, my dad wants a fixed clip blade (Like a 4" Buck 110). He loves to go through pelvic and sternum when gutting whitetail, so I am going to bump up the toughness and drop it down to 60-61HRC with slightly thicker edge geometry than I normally put on a hunter. AEBL is such a versatile steel.
 
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