Any ideas on what these are? (identification)

whynotv2 · May 27, 2014

Hello all. I came across these at a yard sale and other than them being bladed weapons (swords) of an undetermined age, I have know idea specifically their type. I'm attaching 3 images, 2 are for the same sword. The scabbard on the one that has 2 images is in terrible condition and I'm not sure what it is made of. The person who owns them said they are 200 years old. I could pick up a rusty nail from my backyard and say it's 200 years old, but it wouldn't be true. Since I know nothing about this stuff, I figured here would be a god start.

I don't seem to be able to upload the photos here for some reason (after becoming a subscribing member) so I posted them to Flickr... https://www.flickr.com/photos/33845262@N07/

Thank you!

GWashington1732 · May 27, 2014

I can't comment on the age or origin but one's a Talwar the other is a bayonet.

horseclover · May 27, 2014

The indo/persian tulwar is of an 18th century type. Can you share pictures of the entire sword and bayonet? Dimensions overall? The bayonet looks like one of the Mauser variants. Look here to browse bayonets.
http://www.old-smithy.info/

These are posted with links from your flickr gallery

Cheers

GC

whynotv2 · May 29, 2014

Thanks all. I'll try to get a few more pictures as soon as I can. I have the yard sale person's contact information and they hadn't sold them when the yard sale was over. I wasn't about to buy them without knowing what they were, authentic or not, etc.

screwtape2713 · May 30, 2014

The bayonet hilt is quite distinctive, actually. It's clearly the bayonet for the French Gras rifle from the early 1870s. Came between the Chassepot, with which they lost the Franco-Prussian War of 1870, and the Lebel.

The sword, as horseclover said, is an Indo-Persian tulwar or talwar. No idea myself on how to date them, other than a look at the entire blade would help.

Windwhistler · May 30, 2014

I agree on the bayonet identification from screwtape2713. The Talwar is real. I have seen many dozens of these and the date issue is going to require the whole blade with any markings. They used these from the really early 18th century till the middle of the 20th in some regions of India. The grips are generally too small for a westerner's hand and I have been told that they gripped with the little finger outside the knuckle bow originally. The steel is usually pretty good if they were made for use and not for ceremony. The one pictured here is by all appearances one of the many hundreds made to arm the household troops of some local Indian prince. They were quite reasonable in the 1970's but have gained a bit of value today and are now a bit price prohibitive given their pedigree and questionable steel.

horseclover · May 30, 2014

whynotv2 said:
Thanks all. I'll try to get a few more pictures as soon as I can. I have the yard sale person's contact information and they hadn't sold them when the yard sale was over. I wasn't about to buy them without knowing what they were, authentic or not, etc.

Ah so! What I know of bayonets would only fill a small thimble. Is it the Gras blades we see cut down and re-hilted as trench knives?

Cheers

GC

Windwhistler · May 31, 2014

I have an Indian buddy, who is married to the grand daughter of the last ruler of a small Indian state. They are from two different parts of India but 35 years ago (long before the Nepal Cache) he gave me all sorts of great information on the first Gahendra rifle I ever owned. He also says if you buy it, look carefully for makers marks on that Talwar blade (and he says they may be half way out as well as at the ricasso) that he may be able to tell you in what area or nation state it was originally used. He had identified two for me already. When his wife's family left India they originally moved to Britain. Her brothers still live there today. They pretty much disassembled the carvings and art works in the palace and moved everything with them. Much was then moved here with them later and their home is a small replication of a palace. Really incredible statuary and relief carvings that would cost millions to sculpt today. It is worth a trip over to see him just to discuss the markings with him.