Any pointers on forging transition to tang on hidden tang?

Fitzhugh

Fitzhugh

Joined
Feb 5, 2013
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I've made one small knife and started another using the ball peen hammer I already had, put second on hold until the cross peen hammer arrives. In both cases I've had real trouble getting the tang to ricasso transition right. Basically, starting from the rear of the tang and looking down from the top the tang gets wider until the point where the transition starts. Then it gets thinner before the ricasso is fully there. This means a guard or bolster that slips over the tang and abuts the ricasso has spaces on the side. I've relied on using a file to finish defining the full sharp transition to the ricasso (w/ very small curve instead of true abrupt 90* angle). I think my problem is from not forging the transition itself much more fully. I got around the problem with the knife I finished (tung oil drying now) by cutting the handle in two and carving out a slot on each side that the tang fits very tightly in. At least I know there is really no way for it to pull out once I glued it!

I'm having trouble understanding how to move the metal here. I tried the modelling clay suggestion but the clay I have doesn't work for this when turned on edge - it is great for getting a feel for how the metal will move, curve etc. when hammering the bevels though. I'll ask about clays with stronger structure at the great ceramics art store where I got the bricks for my forge.

Anyone have suggestions or know of a video showing this being done? I've tried working on the edge of the anvil approximation I have (It's not even an ASO... back flat space of cast playdough bench vise - also waiting for the sledgehammer head to arrive to make a post anvil that I don't worry about breaking with every hit). That's probably part of my problem there: I've been hesitant to hit all that hard and have been using a 10oz or something ball peen.

This is with 3/16" 1084 bar stock, thicker by far than the blades I've worked on but just right for the other things I'm making from it. I'm forging instead of stock removal because it is much more fun for me. I still ended up doing more stock removal than I would have if I knew what I was doing.

Thank you!
 
We did a video in 2010 with Tai Goo, Ray Richard and myself. Ray had made a tool he called GODZILLA which made short work of the shoulders. IT was good for drawing as well. You might even be able to find old threads here or on knifedogs. If you wanted a vid any of us could send you one.

Also look up the guillotine fuller. Another iteration of godzilla.
 
Fantastic help - thanks!
The youtube video helps. In fact, anytime I see someone forging it helps.

I found the info on Godzilla. It sure looks like it would make it easier. Thinking it through, it seems part of the benefit of the guillotine fuller is that it can get in tighter than a peen hammer can, right? Even in the video JZKnives posted it looks perhaps like a fuller was used before the video started - just an uneducated interpretation. On the Godzilla: does the vertical member form a U from the top, providing a guide on both sides? Sure seems easier to use than holding the tongs in my teeth since I have to forge when nobody is home (because that is when neighbors aren't home either)

You mentioned a video, I didn't find one. Can you link me to it?


Godzilla links, in case someone else reads this and is curious (and to make my life simple when I refer later, of course):
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/835977-Seeing-if-I-still-can
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/868881-Time-to-make-Godzilla!-Steel-Type-options
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/607831-Hey-Raymond-Richard-show-us-how-to-make-a-gorilla


Oh, and I did get some clay today. The guy at the store knew just what I meant, said he uses oil based clay because it doesn't fold over when edge on nearly as easily. my hands still smell like the sulfur in it though. blech


Thank you both!
 
Also look up the Nick Wheeler Wip stuck in the metal with you. He has a similar tool as stated above and has pics of him using it.
 
That WIP is fantastic, and I've only looked at the first page so far. Of course they forgot to take photos just as he was using the guillotine :) Still, I understand now it's role.

Looks like I'll get some metal and make a no-weld godzilla.

One question: as far as I can tell most such tools don't have a spring. Am I just not seeing it? I'd think the ends of the dies or horizontal pieces would be chamfered so they'd open easily when the blade is pushed in. What am I missing?
 
Well there is a spring fuller tool, which is just a bar of steel bent into a "U" and you use it in a similar way.

Also, there is a great little video out there by Lin Rhea of him reviewing a new forge he got, but watching him forge out a small hidden tang hunter in it has more value than anything. He uses one hammer, forges right off the endof the bar, and uses the corner of the anvil to draw the tang out.


-X
 
There are several tools used for fullering.
A fuller is a tool you can use to draw out the tang.

1. A spring fuller, make one yourself by making it from an old tire iron.

2. A guillotine fuller, or smithing magician. This tool often has a spring, but can also have changeable dies. Several blacksmithing tool sites sell them, and several blacksmithing forums have WIP's on making them.

3. A Godzilla, Raymond Richard here on Shoptalk has a thread about his. I built one from 4140, and added in a hot cut feature and a post anvil that's 1-5/8"x1-5/8" with sharp edges for setting the ricasso.

This technique is what I think you are missing. Setting the ricasso in an ABS style blade will generally make it thicker and give you a good base for which you will see Nick explain in his WIP you were directed to. I think Nick Wheeler and Bruce Bump's WIP's are the best there are.

Read all you can on these forums and soak up the knowledge freely shared. Happy forging!
 
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Lin Rhea sure makes it look easy. That looks like what I tried but my results were so different. I'll watch it again and see what differences I can notice.

I've got a lot of good reading to do :) I've got a bunch of videos to watch through while I carve a sheath for the little knife I made all wrong. I found them linked from the Lin Rhea page. I hadn't realized what WIP meant so I didn't realize the wealth of examples out there.

I appreciate responses like these that point me in the right direction. Often just learning the word for something or someone saying to look for a thread they remember by a particular user opens whole areas of exploration for me. There is so much to learn and I'm starting from zero. The help I've received at this forum has been great. Many people willing to share their hard earned experience and information, a whole slew of people trying to learn, some number who post "i want 2 make knife what do i need 2 by tell me all detailz thx" and get bent when they are told about the FAQs. Oh, and the rare troll that seems to be an obligatory part of the internet. In fact, I think the latter two groups are included with our IP accounts as a bonus feature. Anyhow, I'm so impressed with the help - and grateful.

Thanks... off to do some homework on this stuff.
 
One thing to watch in the Lin Rhea video is his hammer. You have to watch closely, but you won't see him flip it over. He uses both sides during the forging. Granted that level of hammer control comes with hours of practice, but learning how to do it right will help the practice go better. Practice makes permanent. Perfect practice makes perfect.


-X
 
Please, lets not post sales info in Shop Talk. If you want to pitch your fuller, send hank an email.
 
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