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If you have any questions on cryogenic tempering/processing, chemical polishing, or micro coatings let me know.
Mark Beyer
Mark Beyer
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Any questionson Cryogenics?
- Thread starter Mark Beyer
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Welllll now that you mention it, I do have a Q or two on cryo.
Are there actual performance differences in knives made from 52100 and 440c when cryo treated at -120 F and -300 F?
Which cutlery grade steels benefit the most from cryo treatment?
I'm specifically interested in effects on edge retention, ductility and overall strength of the cryo treated cutlery grade steels mentioned above.
Thanks in advance for your reply!
All the best,
Mike U.
Are there actual performance differences in knives made from 52100 and 440c when cryo treated at -120 F and -300 F?
Which cutlery grade steels benefit the most from cryo treatment?
I'm specifically interested in effects on edge retention, ductility and overall strength of the cryo treated cutlery grade steels mentioned above.
Thanks in advance for your reply!
All the best,
Mike U.
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Ok, first to answer the specific question. According to test results at Louisiana Technical University courtesy of the American Society of Metalurgists. 52100 gains more benefit than 440c does. 52100 increases its durability an average 420% while 440c only increases 121% average at -310F. -120F processing is about half that with 195% for the 52100 and slightly higher with 128% for the 440c. Of the study only two AISI# rated steels showed more average improvement at -120 than the -310 process and those were the 440c and the 8620. I hope that answered that question.
Now, the second question. Yes, any metal tested to date has shown improvement in durability and a slight improvement in Rockwell hardness. Ductility would increase as well but I would have to research the specifics of its increase. Rockwell hardness usually improves by 10-15% at -310, no answer on the -120 process. Don't recall the improvement is as much.
If you want the detailed, long, really boring except to techno nerds like me answer into why and how cryo works feel free to ask.
Now, the second question. Yes, any metal tested to date has shown improvement in durability and a slight improvement in Rockwell hardness. Ductility would increase as well but I would have to research the specifics of its increase. Rockwell hardness usually improves by 10-15% at -310, no answer on the -120 process. Don't recall the improvement is as much.
If you want the detailed, long, really boring except to techno nerds like me answer into why and how cryo works feel free to ask.
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Sorry Mike, almost forgot to answer that one. It depends on the grade of steel the cutlery is made out of. Give me several to look up ok and I'll get back with you.
Mark
Mark
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Mark,
Can you clarify what you mean by an "improvement" in Rc?
Also, those are some pretty big (huge, frankly) numbers cited for durability, but I'm not sure what you mean by that, either. Durable as in strength, resistance to wear, ductility, etc, etc, etc
Whichever it is, how are these figures arrived at? What kind of tests?
Don't mean to take you to task about every little thing you said, but...well, yeah, I guess I do
I don't want to read something into your statements that isn't there...
Can you clarify what you mean by an "improvement" in Rc?
Also, those are some pretty big (huge, frankly) numbers cited for durability, but I'm not sure what you mean by that, either. Durable as in strength, resistance to wear, ductility, etc, etc, etc
Whichever it is, how are these figures arrived at? What kind of tests?
Don't mean to take you to task about every little thing you said, but...well, yeah, I guess I do
I don't want to read something into your statements that isn't there...
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Yeah, not a problem. It seems magic at first.
The information was based on the Barron study at Louisiana Tech University by Dr Randall F Barron. They were floating block wear tests using ASM designated test group populations. Sorry, don't know the group size. Don't know the wear force or rotation speed. The figures represent wear/abrasion resistance improvement dictating an increase in the life of the tooling before a need to resurface or resharpen. In your interest would be the edge retention and scall resistance this implies. Tool punches in high wear situations need to retain their edges as much if not more than knives. S-5 punches in real life situations go from 4 million to 64 million punches before replacing. Its a long explanation into why it works but boy does it. What's significant is the retention of this benefit whenever it is re-sharpened, retaining these benfits for the life of the metal unless it is re-forged. The russians really checked this out with electron microscopy of the changed surface. Perfoming analysis of M-2 1230 degree C heat treated oil quenched tool steel they publicized dramatic structural and chemical changes. Carbides doubled, Martensite increase 20%, Austenite decrease 39%, Rockwell increase from 60 to 66. Tensile and bending strength increased fro 86 to 244 and KCU resiliency doubled. These all came from the Jassy tests, done at The Polytechnic Institute of Jassy Romania and available from the ASM.
I hope this is enough for you. If not I can find some case studies?
Mark Beyer
The information was based on the Barron study at Louisiana Tech University by Dr Randall F Barron. They were floating block wear tests using ASM designated test group populations. Sorry, don't know the group size. Don't know the wear force or rotation speed. The figures represent wear/abrasion resistance improvement dictating an increase in the life of the tooling before a need to resurface or resharpen. In your interest would be the edge retention and scall resistance this implies. Tool punches in high wear situations need to retain their edges as much if not more than knives. S-5 punches in real life situations go from 4 million to 64 million punches before replacing. Its a long explanation into why it works but boy does it. What's significant is the retention of this benefit whenever it is re-sharpened, retaining these benfits for the life of the metal unless it is re-forged. The russians really checked this out with electron microscopy of the changed surface. Perfoming analysis of M-2 1230 degree C heat treated oil quenched tool steel they publicized dramatic structural and chemical changes. Carbides doubled, Martensite increase 20%, Austenite decrease 39%, Rockwell increase from 60 to 66. Tensile and bending strength increased fro 86 to 244 and KCU resiliency doubled. These all came from the Jassy tests, done at The Polytechnic Institute of Jassy Romania and available from the ASM.
I hope this is enough for you. If not I can find some case studies?
Mark Beyer
Cliff Stamp
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Mark Beyer :
[M-2 1230 degree C soak]
With a 1230 soak and an oil quench, tempering at 1050 should give 66 RC without cryo. What I have seen on increase in RC is generally 1-2 points on most cutlery steels, both from makers doing testing and general materials references. Very few knife makers however leave the blades at the max RC values, so the hardness gain of cryo is in general not a functional advantage.
In regards to the 86 and 244, are these the yield and tensile strengths, or did the tensile strength increase fom 86 to 244 ksi ? These seem low for strengths in any case For example the tensile strength of 440A (quenched and tempered) is 260 ksi with a 240 ksi yield strength. In regards to the ductility, so it is increased with cryo even if the additional hardness is kept - that is interesting. It there any significant change to the charpy impact toughness.
Nu-Bit has written they found no increase in charpy impact toughness with deep cryogenics, and that the increase in strength was not overly significant, nothing like 80 - > 250 .
-Cliff
[M-2 1230 degree C soak]
With a 1230 soak and an oil quench, tempering at 1050 should give 66 RC without cryo. What I have seen on increase in RC is generally 1-2 points on most cutlery steels, both from makers doing testing and general materials references. Very few knife makers however leave the blades at the max RC values, so the hardness gain of cryo is in general not a functional advantage.
In regards to the 86 and 244, are these the yield and tensile strengths, or did the tensile strength increase fom 86 to 244 ksi ? These seem low for strengths in any case For example the tensile strength of 440A (quenched and tempered) is 260 ksi with a 240 ksi yield strength. In regards to the ductility, so it is increased with cryo even if the additional hardness is kept - that is interesting. It there any significant change to the charpy impact toughness.
Nu-Bit has written they found no increase in charpy impact toughness with deep cryogenics, and that the increase in strength was not overly significant, nothing like 80 - > 250 .
-Cliff
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Mark,
I appreciate your desire to answer questions here, but since you represent a cryo treatment company, I'm going to take anything you say with a grain of salt. I hope that you can understand my caution.
I would appreciate it if you site the studies, papers, and etc. So we can read them ourselves.
BTW, for those interested here's a link to a chart from onecryo's web site about the "gains" for different steel types about half way down:
http://onecryo.com/onecryo/manufact.htm
Also, Mark, if you don't mind in the site and in your posts you talk about Dr. R. F. Barron, Louisiana Tech University, can you give a journal where these studies where published?
Also, out of curiosity I called LTU, and a Dr. R. F. Barron retired in 1997 though he still teaches as an adjunct.
Thanks,
I appreciate your desire to answer questions here, but since you represent a cryo treatment company, I'm going to take anything you say with a grain of salt. I hope that you can understand my caution.
I would appreciate it if you site the studies, papers, and etc. So we can read them ourselves.
BTW, for those interested here's a link to a chart from onecryo's web site about the "gains" for different steel types about half way down:
http://onecryo.com/onecryo/manufact.htm
Also, Mark, if you don't mind in the site and in your posts you talk about Dr. R. F. Barron, Louisiana Tech University, can you give a journal where these studies where published?
Also, out of curiosity I called LTU, and a Dr. R. F. Barron retired in 1997 though he still teaches as an adjunct.
Thanks,
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I'll get the listing. Will post it with location in electronic format if possible. No problem. Give me a day or two.
Mark
Mark
Cliff Stamp
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A few questions :
The primary reason for the increase in wear resistance I have seen argued is the formation of eta vs epsilon carbides. What exactly is the difference in composition and crystal structure of the two, and how are the materials properties effected. Are the eta forms harder, form sharper segregates, or less prone to tear out?
Nu-Bit has argued that with deep cryogenics only a single short temper (1hr) be performed as this produces the optimal carbide structure and that the common use of multiple longer tempers (~2hr), will actually degrade the steel through grain growth. Your opinion on this matter of how to temper after deep cryogenics? Number of times and length.
Stress relief? It is also argued that a snap temper and long gradual temp drops are needed to prevent temperature shock. Considering that knives are actually very thin and simple shaped parts, could you get away without any of this for blades? Just jam the knife into a dewar of liquid nitrogen.
The fact that the cold treatment decomposes the martensite after forming is also mentioned. However is this a gain when tempering does this anyway? Is this what causes the difference in carbide structure?
-Cliff
The primary reason for the increase in wear resistance I have seen argued is the formation of eta vs epsilon carbides. What exactly is the difference in composition and crystal structure of the two, and how are the materials properties effected. Are the eta forms harder, form sharper segregates, or less prone to tear out?
Nu-Bit has argued that with deep cryogenics only a single short temper (1hr) be performed as this produces the optimal carbide structure and that the common use of multiple longer tempers (~2hr), will actually degrade the steel through grain growth. Your opinion on this matter of how to temper after deep cryogenics? Number of times and length.
Stress relief? It is also argued that a snap temper and long gradual temp drops are needed to prevent temperature shock. Considering that knives are actually very thin and simple shaped parts, could you get away without any of this for blades? Just jam the knife into a dewar of liquid nitrogen.
The fact that the cold treatment decomposes the martensite after forming is also mentioned. However is this a gain when tempering does this anyway? Is this what causes the difference in carbide structure?
-Cliff
I have heard that there are some things formed when subjected to very low temperatures (-300 ) that increase the cutting efficiency of knives. What does the temperature and soak time of the steel do to the formation of the carbides when quenched, the quench temperature, the length of time in the Martinsite transformation zone, time of tempering, number of cycles of tempering, and the difference of the carbides at the different tempering tempratures. Lots of questions and hopefully some answers.
Does the cryogenics make up for a less that perfect heat treat? Does the same increases (% wise) happen to the same steel with different techniques in heat treating.
These are just some of the things that I have never been able to find out from books that are designed for thicker pieces and have different applications. For knife making, thin parts, is there that much done with all the different variables?
Sorry for all the questions, but the link to some reading would maybe help a lot of people that seek the ultimate in knife performance in relation to heat treating.
Does the cryogenics make up for a less that perfect heat treat? Does the same increases (% wise) happen to the same steel with different techniques in heat treating.
These are just some of the things that I have never been able to find out from books that are designed for thicker pieces and have different applications. For knife making, thin parts, is there that much done with all the different variables?
Sorry for all the questions, but the link to some reading would maybe help a lot of people that seek the ultimate in knife performance in relation to heat treating.
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Sorry, they aren't links, still working on some of those. Since all of you are knowledgeable in metallurgy I'll just throw these out. Will get to the more technical questions in a moment. There are more technical refernces than these but these are the most relavent to this site.
Louisiana Technical University-Transcripts
Mechanical Engineering Department
April 9-30 1973 Study of Cryogenic Tempering process on Tool Steel
R.F.Barron LTU report-A study of the effects of cryogenic treatment on tool steel properties
30 August 1973
ASM Journal Excerpts and Articles
O.Zmeskal Written Discussion Trans. Vol 34 1945 Pgs. 294-307
A.H.dArcambal Oral Discussion Trans. Vol 34 1945 Pgs. 307-308
P.Gordon/M.Cohen Trans. Vol 30 1942 Pgs. 569-588
The transformation of retained Austenite in high speed steel at subatmospheric temperatures
Metals Science and Heat Treatment-English Translation from Russian Journal
E.S.Zhmud October 1980, Pgs. 701-703
Improved tool life after shock cooling
A.N.Popandopulo/L.T.Zhukova October 1980 Pgs. 708-710
Transformations iiin high speed steels during cold treatment
E.A.Smolnikov/G.A.Kossovich October 1980 Pgs. 704-705
Metalworking Production
J.Taylor May 1978
Cold plunge gives tools an extra lease on life
Metallurg.
A.Gulyaev Vol. 12 No. 12 1837 Pgs. 65-70
Improved heat treatment of high speed steel
Batelle Labs-Material Performance and Development Department
-Physical Metallurgy section
Proposal #779-R-0268 30 April 1987
Dr Charles W Marshall-Senior Research Scientist
Private Communication-Edward R. Busch December 1986
President-Material Improvement Inc.
TAPPI Journals and conferences-Technical Association of the Pulp and Paper Industry
R.F.Barron TAPPI Conference 1973 Denver CO. Oct 1973
TAPPI Journal Vol. 57 #5 May 1974 Pg. 137
Yes, Cryogenics can save you moneyheres why
TAPPI Journal Vol. 57 #5 May 1974
Cryogenic treatment produces cost savings for slitter knives
ISIJ International Journal
F.Mengu/Ktagashira/R.Azuma/H.Sohma Vol. 34 #2 1994 Pgs 205-210
Role of eta carbide precipitations in theh wear resistance improvement of Fe-12Cr-Mo-V-1.4C
tool steel by cryogenic treatment
1989 Cryogenic engineering conference
R.F.Barron/R.H.Thompson Paper BP-17 July 24-28 1989
Effect of cryogenic treatment on corrosion resistance
Heat Treating Journal Excerpts and Articles
R.F.Barron Heat Treating #5 1974 Pg. 14
T.P.Sweeney Jr. Heat Treating February 1986 Pgs.28-32
Deep cryogenics : The great cold debate
Heat Treating
J.M.Heberling August 1982 Pgs. 22-32
Tool steel tutorial
H.P.Nichols August 1988
Tool failure from the perspective of heat treatment
Iron Age
R.A.Wilson 1971 Pg55
S.W.DePoy 13 April 1944 Pg. 52
Subzero treatment of high speed steel
Steel
B.Berlien 10 January 1944
Subzero hardening cycles
Heat treat Magazine
R.F.Barron Cryogenic Cryotech June 1974
Carbide Tool Journal
M.Kosmowski The promise of cryogenics Nov/Dec 1981
Modern Machine Shop
M. Albert Executive Editor Vol. 64 #8 January 1992
Cutting tools in the deep freeze
Modern Applications News
P. Paulin January 1994
Coating the structure of metals at deep cryogenic temperatures
Cryogenics
R.F.Barron Vol. 22 #5 August 1982
Cryogenic treatment of metals to improve wear resistance
Manufacturing engineering
Dr. H.E. Trucks How cryogenics is used in the treatment of metals December 1983
Cutting Tool Engineering
P.Paulin Vol. 44 #5 August 1992
Cold Cuts
Industrial Heating
R.Frey 21-23 September 1983
Cryogenic treatment improves properties of drills and P/M parts
Popular Science
V.E.Gilmore Frozen Tools June 1987
American Machinist & Automated Manufacturing
J.A.Vaccari Senior Editor March 1986 90-92
Deep freeze improves products
Proceedings of the 8th International Congress on Refrigeration
R.A.Barron Vol.1 1971
Effect of cryogenic treatment on lathe tool wear
Plenum Press
R.F.Barron/R.H.Thompson Advances in cryogenic engineering Vol. 36 1990 Pgs. 1375-1379
Effect of cryogenic treatment on corrosion resistance
R.F.Barron/C.R.Mulhern Advances in cryogenic engineering materials Vol 26 1980
Cryogenic treatment of AISI-TR8 and C1045 steels
Prentice Hall Publishers
C. Lipson Wear Consideration in Design 1967 Pg. 6
Academic treatises and thesis
K.M.Smith Lanchester Polytech May 1979
An investigation into the influence of cryogenic treatment on the wear resistance of tool steel
L. Hunt Arizona State University June 1983
Extending carbide tool life by cryogenic treatment
M.Kao Arizona State university
Improvement of wear resistance of sintered tungsten carbide-cryogenic treatment
M.C.Shaw-Abstract-Dept of Aeronautical Engineering
Corporate studies
Nothrop Corporation-J.A.Boldt 17 March 1986
Palmdale production environment aircraft length drill cost evaluation
Western Electric Co.- 21st Inter-Plant Toola dn Gage conference 1982
R.A.Barron presentation-How cryogenic treatment controls wear
Cost studies-Moving ahead with deep freeze
Jospeh D Garcia PH.D./James C. Diefenderfer P.E.
Timken-Latrobe Steel subsidiary
Bulletin 101-How to tell a good high spped steel
Bulletin 110-Surface treatments for high speed steel
Bulletin 105-Factors in the selection and use of high speed steels
Bulletin 104-The effects of improper grinding techniques on the surface structure of high speed
Steels
Bulletin 114-Dimensional changes during heat treatment of steel
Bulletin 113-Effect of different heat treatment temperatures on tool steels (D2 and H13)
The British Oxygen Company
R.G.Bowes Heat treatment of metals 1974.1 Pgs. 29-32
The theory and practice of sub-zero treatment of metals
The Commonwealth Industrial Gases Limited
A.R.Keen Metals Australasia article submission August 1982 Pgs. 12-23
Hasay-savage Broach Co.
Deep cryogenic engineering data sheets
Colt Industries-Crucible metals subsidiary
Cold forming tool steels Technical and engineering data sheets
Louisiana Technical University-Transcripts
Mechanical Engineering Department
April 9-30 1973 Study of Cryogenic Tempering process on Tool Steel
R.F.Barron LTU report-A study of the effects of cryogenic treatment on tool steel properties
30 August 1973
ASM Journal Excerpts and Articles
O.Zmeskal Written Discussion Trans. Vol 34 1945 Pgs. 294-307
A.H.dArcambal Oral Discussion Trans. Vol 34 1945 Pgs. 307-308
P.Gordon/M.Cohen Trans. Vol 30 1942 Pgs. 569-588
The transformation of retained Austenite in high speed steel at subatmospheric temperatures
Metals Science and Heat Treatment-English Translation from Russian Journal
E.S.Zhmud October 1980, Pgs. 701-703
Improved tool life after shock cooling
A.N.Popandopulo/L.T.Zhukova October 1980 Pgs. 708-710
Transformations iiin high speed steels during cold treatment
E.A.Smolnikov/G.A.Kossovich October 1980 Pgs. 704-705
Metalworking Production
J.Taylor May 1978
Cold plunge gives tools an extra lease on life
Metallurg.
A.Gulyaev Vol. 12 No. 12 1837 Pgs. 65-70
Improved heat treatment of high speed steel
Batelle Labs-Material Performance and Development Department
-Physical Metallurgy section
Proposal #779-R-0268 30 April 1987
Dr Charles W Marshall-Senior Research Scientist
Private Communication-Edward R. Busch December 1986
President-Material Improvement Inc.
TAPPI Journals and conferences-Technical Association of the Pulp and Paper Industry
R.F.Barron TAPPI Conference 1973 Denver CO. Oct 1973
TAPPI Journal Vol. 57 #5 May 1974 Pg. 137
Yes, Cryogenics can save you moneyheres why
TAPPI Journal Vol. 57 #5 May 1974
Cryogenic treatment produces cost savings for slitter knives
ISIJ International Journal
F.Mengu/Ktagashira/R.Azuma/H.Sohma Vol. 34 #2 1994 Pgs 205-210
Role of eta carbide precipitations in theh wear resistance improvement of Fe-12Cr-Mo-V-1.4C
tool steel by cryogenic treatment
1989 Cryogenic engineering conference
R.F.Barron/R.H.Thompson Paper BP-17 July 24-28 1989
Effect of cryogenic treatment on corrosion resistance
Heat Treating Journal Excerpts and Articles
R.F.Barron Heat Treating #5 1974 Pg. 14
T.P.Sweeney Jr. Heat Treating February 1986 Pgs.28-32
Deep cryogenics : The great cold debate
Heat Treating
J.M.Heberling August 1982 Pgs. 22-32
Tool steel tutorial
H.P.Nichols August 1988
Tool failure from the perspective of heat treatment
Iron Age
R.A.Wilson 1971 Pg55
S.W.DePoy 13 April 1944 Pg. 52
Subzero treatment of high speed steel
Steel
B.Berlien 10 January 1944
Subzero hardening cycles
Heat treat Magazine
R.F.Barron Cryogenic Cryotech June 1974
Carbide Tool Journal
M.Kosmowski The promise of cryogenics Nov/Dec 1981
Modern Machine Shop
M. Albert Executive Editor Vol. 64 #8 January 1992
Cutting tools in the deep freeze
Modern Applications News
P. Paulin January 1994
Coating the structure of metals at deep cryogenic temperatures
Cryogenics
R.F.Barron Vol. 22 #5 August 1982
Cryogenic treatment of metals to improve wear resistance
Manufacturing engineering
Dr. H.E. Trucks How cryogenics is used in the treatment of metals December 1983
Cutting Tool Engineering
P.Paulin Vol. 44 #5 August 1992
Cold Cuts
Industrial Heating
R.Frey 21-23 September 1983
Cryogenic treatment improves properties of drills and P/M parts
Popular Science
V.E.Gilmore Frozen Tools June 1987
American Machinist & Automated Manufacturing
J.A.Vaccari Senior Editor March 1986 90-92
Deep freeze improves products
Proceedings of the 8th International Congress on Refrigeration
R.A.Barron Vol.1 1971
Effect of cryogenic treatment on lathe tool wear
Plenum Press
R.F.Barron/R.H.Thompson Advances in cryogenic engineering Vol. 36 1990 Pgs. 1375-1379
Effect of cryogenic treatment on corrosion resistance
R.F.Barron/C.R.Mulhern Advances in cryogenic engineering materials Vol 26 1980
Cryogenic treatment of AISI-TR8 and C1045 steels
Prentice Hall Publishers
C. Lipson Wear Consideration in Design 1967 Pg. 6
Academic treatises and thesis
K.M.Smith Lanchester Polytech May 1979
An investigation into the influence of cryogenic treatment on the wear resistance of tool steel
L. Hunt Arizona State University June 1983
Extending carbide tool life by cryogenic treatment
M.Kao Arizona State university
Improvement of wear resistance of sintered tungsten carbide-cryogenic treatment
M.C.Shaw-Abstract-Dept of Aeronautical Engineering
Corporate studies
Nothrop Corporation-J.A.Boldt 17 March 1986
Palmdale production environment aircraft length drill cost evaluation
Western Electric Co.- 21st Inter-Plant Toola dn Gage conference 1982
R.A.Barron presentation-How cryogenic treatment controls wear
Cost studies-Moving ahead with deep freeze
Jospeh D Garcia PH.D./James C. Diefenderfer P.E.
Timken-Latrobe Steel subsidiary
Bulletin 101-How to tell a good high spped steel
Bulletin 110-Surface treatments for high speed steel
Bulletin 105-Factors in the selection and use of high speed steels
Bulletin 104-The effects of improper grinding techniques on the surface structure of high speed
Steels
Bulletin 114-Dimensional changes during heat treatment of steel
Bulletin 113-Effect of different heat treatment temperatures on tool steels (D2 and H13)
The British Oxygen Company
R.G.Bowes Heat treatment of metals 1974.1 Pgs. 29-32
The theory and practice of sub-zero treatment of metals
The Commonwealth Industrial Gases Limited
A.R.Keen Metals Australasia article submission August 1982 Pgs. 12-23
Hasay-savage Broach Co.
Deep cryogenic engineering data sheets
Colt Industries-Crucible metals subsidiary
Cold forming tool steels Technical and engineering data sheets
Cliff, I just reread your response about the grain growth at tempering temperatures. Since I don't have access to all or any of the publications that Mr. Beyer has mentioned, it really doesn't do me a lot of good in the answer department. I guess I will keep doing my thing until my friend and I do some more testing.
Maybe there will be something on the internet somewhere that can be read with a few charts and data and graphs.
Maybe there will be something on the internet somewhere that can be read with a few charts and data and graphs.
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I am still researching the links to these or similar articles. Since many are pre-internet and many are pre-pc they are difficult to find. I plan on posting what I can find. Anyone who finds the appropriate links, feel free to help me out by posting them here. Thanks and still working on it.
Mark Beyer
Mark Beyer
Cliff Stamp
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Mark I appreciate the links, however some info on the articles would be appreciated, abstracts at least, but direct reference to commentary on the above questions would be optimal from someone who has read the papers.
-Cliff
-Cliff
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holy thread revive batman.
just wanted to share the article mentioned by Mark way back when.
The zombie thread is only used for context.
https://imgur.com/a/5ImsASE
mirror if images go down: https://www.scribd.com/document/397884535/Barron-Original-Manuscript
just wanted to share the article mentioned by Mark way back when.
The zombie thread is only used for context.
https://imgur.com/a/5ImsASE
mirror if images go down: https://www.scribd.com/document/397884535/Barron-Original-Manuscript
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Any questions on Cryogenics?
Yes, did they freeze Walt Disney's head?
Yes, did they freeze Walt Disney's head?