anybody use one

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Aug 16, 2008
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Back in my day ( about 4 decades ago) the best to get was a Gerber MkII, which I still have. Now you have tomahawks and tactical axes to carry. I want to know if anyone has used one in hand to hand combat. I mean real military combat, not trainning or back alley fights. Talk to my old friends, that are still around, and nobody knows of anyone. Is this the latist craze.
 
my budy took one to iraq and he was in a situation where he threatened to use it and the enemy soldier surrendered......we laugh about it....
 
the atc vtac is an issue item to some specialized troops the way i understand it.
 
I'll just hazard an uninformed guess that an axe or tomahawk would be pretty imposing in hand-to-hand. Not sure it's really needed (assuming that our guys have rifles and e-tools), but it sure looks effective.
 
Fighting knives magazine article 1990. A Lt. stated he killed an enemy with a Lagana in 1966. I have a copy of the article.
 
I dont know bout you but A back ally fight is combat, Heck any fight where your lifes on the line is combat. Every fight Ive ever been in was for my life.I never had to use it but i did pull it out on 2 guys who rushed me and boy did they Crap there draws.
 
I want to know if anyone has used one in hand to hand combat. I mean real military combat, not trainning or back alley fights.

I think you're going to find that any incident of someone using any blade, let alone a tomahawk, in battle is rare indeed. I can certainly draw a gun faster than I can draw my tomahawk, and honestly, they don't make the best utility hatchets.

In my opinion, when we're being honest, the hatchets you mentioned give you better utility than any tomahawk.

Tomahawks are designed for fighting and throwing. I've thrown a lot of tomahawks, and I love it, but I've never had the occasion to use one in a fight, can't even think of a viable scenario where I might use one over another weapon, and I can't think of anyone who's used one in a fight.

Though I do have several tomahawks, I'll take my Estwing hatchet for utility purposes over the tomahawks any day.

Just my worthless opinion.
 
Though I do have several tomahawks, I'll take my Estwing hatchet for utility purposes over the tomahawks any day.

Just my worthless opinion.

i don't think your opinion is worthless, brother, but i would like to address some concerns i have with it.

don't let me seem argumentative - that's not my intent, i like those Estwing hatchets too - i even re-handle them for brethren, but respectfully, it sounds like you have never used a proper tomahawk, which the natives adapted FROM hatchet designs in the first place.

there's a reason they did that.

sorry to interject like a bunker buster - but this is a subject near and dear to my heart;

caveat: i put specialty composite handles on hawks, axes, shovels, and hatchets, all of which i love. i have re-configured a lot of famous makers' heads for our Investors, and have probably re-built and tuned more than 200 hundred distinctly-different tomahawk designs in the last two years alone - many more over my 42 years.

i am a bit rushed, but i didn't want this to go unaddressed, so the following is a whole lot of information thrown your way to reflect upon, please pardon the form.


very respectfully - in my opinion, i think you can't accurately compare a tomahawk to a hatchet that simply - "tomahawk" is a gross generality;

does your hawk have a poll?

does it have a spike?

does it have neither one?

how much does it weigh? and how long is it? - that is KEY;


this guy had every kind of tomahawk and hatchet in the book, and not one mention of length or weight in his psuedo-tests.

(slapping self in forehead.)


you'll see me rant about a "proper hawk" all the time - WTH hell do i mean by that? - experience shows that an ideal general-use tomahawk has a poll or a spike for reasons which will be explained, and has a long thin low-mass head; the operative phrase for a tomahawk that will beat a fine hatchet is "One Ounce per Inch of Length."

ever notice why tomahawk manufacturers seem to forget to post the weight of their hawks so often? not even a weight range?

Cold Steel (kind of) does that - link

Cold Steel Trail Hawk - 19 inches long, 19.1 ounces - that fits the "One Ounce per Inch" tomahawk maxim. - the longer the handle gets on a hawk, keeping to this informal rule, the more improvement you will see in performance when compared to chopping tools of similar weight and geometries.

look at this Estwing Hatchet's Specs; link

"Product Dimensions: 13 x 5 x 1 inches ; 2.4 pounds "

i doubt that the Estwing Hatchet is really that heavy, but it is close - that is 36 ounces in a 13 ounce tool. - that's almost 3 Ounces per Inch - three times the rate of a Proper Hawk, and even beyond Proper Forest Axe standards, which i humbly submit is 1.25 to 1.5 Ounces per Inch - depending on your preferences.

and that's before you consider the longer length on a Proper Hawk will give the Hawk more Impulse than the hatchets of the same weight. - if you don't know the difference between impulse and inertia, check it out - or just take my word for it that you will be a lot less tired.

i just rebuilt a 31 inch Norse Hawk on a Gen 1 Handle that would be still be lighter than the Estwing demonstrated previously.

it laughs at anything the size of a lodge pole, and it's not even optimum for a tomahawk, due to its lack of a trailing mass (such as a poll) - the cross section of the Gen 1 Mk 3 Composite Handles helps it track horizontally very well, but it would be much better with a head like a Trail hawk for most purposes. - it will do better splitting logs on the ground though, due to its larger bit after you tune up the edge, but not by much.

you can't leverage Ballast Effect to any degree in a short tool, like you can a long tool of the same weight either, unless the handle is hollow (but it is hard to get hatchet and axe users to choke up on a proper long tomahawk handle, to use the bottom third of the handle for more "Snap" and less fatigue over time - they always want to hold it by the end, almost universally - another shame.)

that's huge.

it has to do with Centers of Mass Placement and Moment Arm, to name a few elements in making or breaking a tool design. - many here know this already, this is for the folks who are new to axes, hatchets and hawks.


that can't be over-emphasized! - get a 24 inch long, 24 ounce proper tomahawk, and put it next to a stubby 24 ounce hatchet - the hatchet won't have a chance in most utility utilizations, unless you are making twelve inch boxes from the inside of them - har! - all other things equal - and that's before you start to improve the ergonomics of the tomahawk handle - it 's a demonstrated fact, brethren - do a search.

see for yourself.

a Cold Steel Rifleman's Tomahawk is often called a tomahawk - nothing could be more inaccurate, by my reasoning (though it should give the Estwings a run for their money, as is) - it is an axe, that happens to have a slip handle - way too massive to be a proper hawk.



tomahawks are GREAT workers - i cringe when i hear them described only as fighters and throwers (which they are also great at, of course, but not limited to in the least), when they have a long handle and a long thin head with a trailing mass (like a hammer poll or spike, which helps it track better the more horizontal your chopping angle is).

i think one reason tomahawks aren't more common is because folks commonly don't push the limits of outdoor survival practices - car camping or walking into the woods without a pack for a mile or three ain't it.

i started out with Estwings and Gerbers and Plumbs and Gransfors Bruks, and i still love them.

but they are left behind when i go to the Wilderness afoote - i can carry a proper long hawk and a short machete for a similar weight to an Estwing hatchet, which can't match the work a proper Long Hawk can do with a Gen 1 Composite Handle on it (or without it probably, i don't know about that as i have always used my composite handles on longer hawks (20 - 30 inches) vice wooden handles, with a few exceptions).

i was in San Gorgonio Wilderness less than two weeks ago - you guys should check it out if you are unlucky enough to be in SoCal.

lastly, i do not have an investment in whether you buy a tomahawk or not currently (i have to admit in honesty however, we are working on getting custom heads for my all-time favorite woods-tool, the Hawk) - a lot of folks think i make tomahawks, which is not true yet - i just improve them with a composite handle with a special construction - i can handle anything though, and do - the point is, i hope you don't limit your expectations like Cliff Stamp does, and call it science.

- thin your hawk heads down, play with the edge geometries, hack the polls off, or take the sides off of the hammer polls, or modify the spikes to your liking - you will see what i am sputtering about, and your hatchets will begin to rust.

thanks for your consideration in this matter, and your patience with me..

back to the Hawk Dungeon with me.

:cool:

hawk-O-maniac vec
 
i don't think your opinion is worthless, brother, but i would like to address some concerns i have with it.

Well, that's what I'm here for: To learn though the wisdom and experience of those who have far more experience than I do. I've never considered the things you've brought up and I appreciate that very much!
 
Well, that's what I'm here for: To learn though the wisdom and experience of those who have far more experience than I do. I've never considered the things you've brought up and I appreciate that very much!

we've got a good group of contributors here, that's always nice.

i learn new things every day, from just about everyone.

it's just a pleasure to share a virtual campfire with folks who love hawks and such.

folks who are new at stuff can look at things with no prejudices and tend to floor me with some great unsolicited advice and observations sometimes - i love that - it's good for the soul.

vec
 
a Cold Steel Rifleman's Tomahawk is often called a tomahawk - nothing could be more inaccurate, by my reasoning (though it should give the Estwings a run for their money, as is) - it is an axe, that happens to have a slip handle - way too massive to be a proper hawk.
Yes, Vector is dead on about this. They actually fall into the category of what was called a Riflemen's Belt Axe. Hartzler & Knowles produced a big 'coffee-table' book titled Indian Tomahawks & Frontiersmen Belt Axes that show the following actual categories:

Trade Axes, Spike Tomahawks, Halberd Battle Axes, Spontoon Tomahawks, Riflemen's Belt Axes, Missouri War Hatchets, Woodland Pipe Tomahawks, Brass Pipe Tomahawks, Pewter Tomahawks, Western Plains Pipe Tomahawks, and Navel Boarding Axes. This book is really good because it gives listing of documented Tomahawk Makers in America. I've been guilty of lumping the Rifleman's Belt Axe into the category of tomahawk too but they are very distinctly different.

All My Best
Dwight
 
a Cold Steel Rifleman's Tomahawk is often called a tomahawk - nothing could be more inaccurate, by my reasoning (though it should give the Estwings a run for their money, as is) - it is an axe, that happens to have a slip handle - way too massive to be a proper hawk.
Yes, Vector is dead on about this. They actually fall into the category of what was called a Riflemen's Belt Axe. Hartzler & Knowles produced a big 'coffee-table' book titled Indian Tomahawks & Frontiersmen Belt Axes that show the following actual categories:

Trade Axes, Spike Tomahawks, Halberd Battle Axes, Spontoon Tomahawks, Riflemen's Belt Axes, Missouri War Hatchets, Woodland Pipe Tomahawks, Brass Pipe Tomahawks, Pewter Tomahawks, Western Plains Pipe Tomahawks, and Navel Boarding Axes. This book is really good because it gives listing of documented Tomahawk Makers in America. I've been guilty of lumping the Rifleman's Belt Axe into the category of tomahawk too but they are very distinctly different.

All My Best
Dwight


thanks for clarifying on that, brother dwight. - yours is a valuable contribution, where i can spout only a little about physics, vice historical perspectives.

in fairness, this tomahawk business is very confusing compared to some other choppers, and i don't see much hope in that situation rectifying very soon, if ever.

it's a shame, with a proper hawk being the fantastic tool that it is.

thanks again,

vec
 
So Brother Vector, Have you ever put your handles on a Gb or Wetterling hatchet head? And thatck you for your explanation of how important gripping up on the handle will improve your leverage on your hawk and the extra handle below your grip acts as a counterbalance giving you more control. Pat
 
So Brother Vector, Have you ever put your handles on a Gb or Wetterling hatchet head?

i actually have a couple of the GB's in the docket to do - i am very excited about them.

on a related subject; one of the brothers here is a lumberjack and we were talking about building race axes - i never got to thank him enough. - he turned me on to a lot of the science of axes and i want to incorporate a lot of the good stuff into a handle that folks could haft themselves from a kit some day.

we've gotten some other neat axe and custom hawk heads in, some from Japan for instance, that i am very excited about doing.

at any rate;

i retrofitted some Cold Steel Rifleman's "hawks" into sort of a Battle Axe / Forest Axe configuration, and they worked so well, i traded my lovely GB Splitting Maul, which i really liked for a bunch of the original Cold Steel tomahawk heads - because the GB was so nice, i didn't want to re-handle it - but the humble modified Rifleman's hawks are outstanding performers as a Forest Axe IMHO, once you trim away all the extra poll and other parts, such as reducing the bottom of the eye (every buddy should get a CS Rifleman's Hawk head and mod it - it's a fun project if nothing else.)

- when my buddy manages to ding up the GB Maul, i'll take it back and re-handle it, but i'd hate to waste all the good work that went into it - the guy who made it obviously cared.

continuing my rant about axes here...;

....now i am moving towards producing different handles, so i'd like to do as many axes and such as i can, as soon as i get slick with some new technologies i am burning neurons on currently.

we could make some nice stuff right now, but i am afraid to "paint myself in a corner" so to speak - when we hope to have some real jumps in the Handle technology shortly.

we've tried to stay in tight communication with the Investors and they have been really great at giving me free rein - a liberty we have conscientiouly tried never to abuse.

i don't want to ask Investors to wait, but i also don't want to give them a Gen 1 Mk 3 that they have been waiting on when i can get them the next evolution at the same cost with a whole lot more features.

that's the goal.

getting ramped up to do that takes time unfortunately.

- wish me lots of luck on that, i will need it, brother.

And thatck you for your explanation of how important gripping up on the handle will improve your leverage on your hawk and the extra handle below your grip acts as a counterbalance giving you more control. Pat


oh, you bet.

just trying to contribute, and blowing it usually...:D....

- thanks for your comments, brother pat.


it's hard to really accept a long handle, and choking up on the same, for utility purposes, until you do it - then you see a lot of teeth and grinning and comments like "Holy Smokes!"

been there, done that myself. :cool:

eventually when we get the tools, we hope to have strong Sectional handles, as an option, or possibly a Standard, so folks won't need to settle on any length, because any length will be possible.

lotsa work to do, and six directions to go.

sure has been a pleasant group on this thread.

vec
 
I dont know bout you but A back ally fight is combat, Heck any fight where your lifes on the line is combat. Every fight Ive ever been in was for my life.I never had to use it but i did pull it out on 2 guys who rushed me and boy did they Crap there draws.

The only time you must fight for your life is in a military action. There you cannot walk away or just leave. Experience has taught me that back alley, bar fights and other fights you can and should.
 
The only time you must fight for your life is in a military action. There you cannot walk away or just leave. Experience has taught me that back alley, bar fights and other fights you can and should.

With respect, the civilians whom are murdered on a daily basis, worldwide, rather disprove your statement!
 
in fairness, this tomahawk business is very confusing compared to some other choppers, and i don't see much hope in that situation rectifying very soon, if ever.

Bother, I really agree with that. When it's all said and done I guess I've been talking about a 'Rifleman's Belt Axe' all along. I think the key here is making sure that we as instructors, know the difference and take-the-time to always point that out. Also, I think that the technical stuff is very, very important and time definitely needs to be devoted to that.

Best
Dwight
 
Mel Gibson did in The Patriot. Awesome fight scene. I don't think a tomahawk would be practical for fighting in a modern war. Native Americans used them and they worked well but it was a completely different type of warfare. I would carry a pistol or knife before I did a tomahawk. IMO tomahawks today are more of a tool than a fighter. They would work good if you were in a one on one situation and the other guy had a shorter, smaller blade (or none at all). I guess you could use them as a silent throwing weapon if you could sneak up on someone but why carry the clunky thing around during a whole war waiting on the one or two times when you could possibly use it when you could carry something that you could use every day?
 
for a soldier to have one handy in a humve or in the truck or strapped in his bag...many uses for one as a tool...for a camper or a hiker in a no gun zone...well a "camp Ax" as I would call it would be better than a sword because a sword would get you arrested...
 
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