Anyone else have a 3V knife outperform their Busse?

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I have a Dan Keffeler Silverback made from 1/4" CPM 3V stock. I also have two Busse knives, Battle Mistress and an ASH-1. The Battle Mistress is over 1/4" thick and the ASH-1 is slightly over 5/16" thick. For comparison sake, I took the Silverback and the Battle Mistress hunting with me to do a little field testing as they were the closest in size between the three. I shot a bore and divided the skinning and dressing as evenly between the two as I could, including chopping through the legs. In case your wondering yes, it was cumbersome to use such large knives for something as detailed as dressing an animal but I wanted to try it. I also split some pine for fire wood using both as well. After coming home and evaluating the edge retention, the Silverback was noticeably sharper. Both knives still had working edges but the 3V was razor sharp while the INFI wasn't. I recognize this isn't as precise or as scientific a comparison as can be done but I wanted to compare the two in an actual real-world situation where both are performing under their own design weight. The ergonomics of the Silverback were also far superior when chopping wood as well. I paid $500 for the Silverback and $600 for the Battle Mistress.

I sold the Battle Mistress.
 
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I'm a Busse fan but I have to admit that well heat treated 3V will has better edge retention than INFI.
 
They're both awesome steels. If I had to sharpen one in the field it would be INFI.
 
I own both infi and 3v and so far..3v holds an edge better but infi is easier to sharpen...infi is slightly tougher..but barely I'm talking maybe 5 ft lbs. They are both pretty corrosion resistant for not being stainless. They are both great performing steel..it depends what job you have them doing.for a big knife I'd go infi and on a small to mid 3v would be fine. If you are getting it done custom on a small knife ask them to put the hrc up around 62. Edge retention is pretty sweet on a 62 3v blade.
 
Thanks for that comparison. Even though it doesn't offer more than anecdotal information, it's still an interesting exercise. You mention that the Busse was thicker stock than the 3V blade, but you didn't offer information about how the edge geometries of the two blades compare--edge thickness, thickness behind the edge, and sharpening angle? All can affect edge retention. And do you know the hardness of the 3V blade by chance? Some small Busse's offer enhanced steel hardness for better edge retention and are more ergonomically suited to field dressing and butchering tasks.

We've seen other indications that 3V may offer equal or better edge retention against INFI as currently heat treated to 58-60 HRC, and Jerry has indicated he may experiment more with higher hardness as used in INFI's early days, more 60-62. But I think he has the steel where he wants it in terms of durability right now, especially on the larger blades more subject to chopping, batonning and general abuse. As you said, even in the thicker blade your Battle Mistress still had a good working edge at the end of the comparison--and on many materials INFI seems to cut almost forever even though it may not stay "shaving sharp".


The two areas in which I think 3V has yet to prove equal to INFI are in how both fail from impact, especially repeated heavy edge impact, and of course corrosion resistance. If your needs include edge retention beyond what INFI is capable of, then 3V may be a good choice. Some other CPM steels like M4 or 10V also might offer adequate toughness and even significantly increased edge holding over 3V. Chopping through hog bones is not really very hard on steel as long as the edge isn’t torqued—I’ve taken many leg bones off deer carcasses with one stroke using a 1095 machete.

Besides excellent edge retention, INFI is a very low-maintenance steel and requires very little attention over long periods of time in harsh conditions; ease of sharpening, toughness/impact resistance, and very high corrosion resistance for a non-stainless steel (and better than some stainless steels). Remember that Busse's full name is Busse Combat Knife Company. Jerry's knives are designed to take everything that can be thrown at them for prolonged periods of use in the worst possible conditions. See how well edge retention holds up on steel that is more prone to rust/corrosion--and see how well a knife cuts after being carried a few days in a wet sheath during harsh weather conditions, as its edge begins to deteriorate. I have used ATS34 blades alongside INFI in wet circumstances where the ATS34 rusted, and the INFI did not. I know 3V does not rust as quickly as some carbon steels, but I doubt it can equal INFI. Would like to see more comparisons in that regard.


With Jerry's genius for taking garden variety steels like 52100, S7, D2, A2, ATS34 and Elmax, tweaking the elemental mix, and then applying sophisticated heat treat protocols to wring amazing performance increases out of them, I would imagine he's experimented with the CPM steels to see what they have to offer. He has always held publicly that the only reason he uses the steels he does is because he has not found anything better--and he is always looking. If he's not changing steels, you can bet there's a good reason based on fundamental, across-the-board performance.

Glad you like your Silverback -- hope it continues to serve you well. :thumbup:
 
My 3v is hrc..57-59 on my fehrman and 59-60 in my survive..and although they are not quite as corrosion resistant as infi its very close. But I will say if you do let 3v rust it progresses faster than infi.now as far as edge geometry goes I will have to check. But for pure toughness I would choose infi. Cuz although 3v is tough it does not have the impact resistance that infi has..from hitting brick I've noticed infi rolls and dents where 3v especially in the higher hardness microchips.
 
Also have bring in the fact that the keffler is I believe designed specifically for chopping wood over anything else. ..and the battle mistress designed for chopping anything. Given the same edge geometry would perform most likely very similar. But until Dan and Jerry design an identical knife its pretty much impossible to know for sure.
 
Keffler makes a very fine knife and very tough. I remember his big 3V blade held up well in Noss's reviews.

A good 3V blade is a good blade, period. :thumbup:
 
My 3v Koster's held edges as long or slightly longer than INFI. They are also treated to a higher hardness (the models I had were, at least), so this makes sense.

INFI isn't the only good steel on the market, and there are other steels that do certain things better. But INFI is really good at everything, and the designs and construction of most of Busse's blades are very appealing to me, and these things make it my favorite steel.
 
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Im waiting on my knife from Dan now, i get it in December but its one of his competition choppers. Cant wait.
 
Also have bring in the fact that the keffler is I believe designed specifically for chopping wood over anything else. ..and the battle mistress designed for chopping anything. Given the same edge geometry would perform most likely very similar. But until Dan and Jerry design an identical knife its pretty much impossible to know for sure.

Im not sure about the silverback specifically, But if you watch the competitions you will see that chopping is only a VERY SMALL part of the comp, its a lot of slicing involved as well and his comp knives are indeed designed to slice just as much as chop. The blade is set up for both on his, A portion of the blade has a thinner edge, and then the other portion of the blade has a thicker edge.

At least I think thats how he described it to me on the phone. Its been a few weeks and my memory isnt perfect. But they are indeed designed to slice and chop.

If your meaning the Busse is designed to chop stuff other than wood, I dont think thats what Jerry had in mind, or the real intent of the knife, even if he warranties it for chopping anything, A knife is still not designed for metal or concrete. IMO anyway
 
I guess I need to throw my experiences out there too...

First - Corrosion resistance - I only have one custom 3V knife, love it but it did rust and actually pretty easily. I used it for the monumental task of opening a bottle of bubbles for my daughter (you know one of those glued on plastic covers) and about half an hour later came back and noticed there were a handful of rust spots on it, another time I stuck it in the ground after some use and again about half an hour to an hour later - more rust. I haven't ever found rust on any infi, while I'm sure it will/can rust I do take pretty decent care of my knives - even the 3v mentioned above always has liberal amounts of frog lube all over it.

Sharpening - I can't sharpen either too terribly well but I'm working on it. Infi does seem to take an edge better and for me stays hair shaving sharp a little longer than the 3v but both stay SHARP even after heavy use.
 
Worldwood..I agree that its not ideal to chop metal or concrete. .and various other material. But I believe a battle mistress is designed to take whatever someone has to do..don't ask me why someone would have chop metal or concrete but I'm sure there has been a few people that were not just doing just to do it. But that's just my take on it.
 
Sometimes metal and concrete, dirt and stone, drywall, lumber with nails, need chopping too.
That little burr on the end of the threaded rod needs trimming.
I like INFI.
 
I prefer Infi to 3v because in my experience it is more corrosion resistant and somewhat tougher. I agree that 3v holds a better edge, but I am not great at sharpening and Infi is easier for me. Infi really shines in larger blades and 3v in mid sized blades, although both are more than adequate across the board.
 
Worldwood..I agree that its not ideal to chop metal or concrete. .and various other material. But I believe a battle mistress is designed to take whatever someone has to do..don't ask me why someone would have chop metal or concrete but I'm sure there has been a few people that were not just doing just to do it. But that's just my take on it.

Yea man I agree that the BM is one heck of a knife and can take on anything someone throws at it, weather it was intended to or not. But as you said its just not ideal to chop rock or metal with a knife.

And i hope it doesnt seem like im saying one is better than the other, because i would never do that. I love my Busse knife, I love all my swamp rats, and I even love my one and lonely dog, the little scrapivore, I love my kabars, i love my ontarios and all the others too, And i am sure I will love my Keffeler just as much as all of them.... Im not for one company, im not for one steel, There is too many excellent knives and steels out there to be stuck on 1 name.

But At a point you just get to personal preferences, once you get so high on the ladder of quality most users will never be able to tell a difference with the steels and it becomes a who likes what because of who likes what.

Well i like em all, As i said before, and im sure it wont be my last time saying it, I love well designed knives in excellent steel no matter what name is on it.

It just so happens that Busse and Keffeler both make well designed knives in excellent steel.. And here we are :D

Richard
 
I own both infi and 3v and so far..3v holds an edge better but infi is easier to sharpen...infi is slightly tougher..but barely I'm talking maybe 5 ft lbs. They are both pretty corrosion resistant for not being stainless. They are both great performing steel..it depends what job you have them doing.for a big knife I'd go infi and on a small to mid 3v would be fine. If you are getting it done custom on a small knife ask them to put the hrc up around 62. Edge retention is pretty sweet on a 62 3v blade.
Plus one
I'd choose INFI for the big one , i think the tougher of INFI are legend .
For the small one i have KR Rasul ,, it's vanadis 23
 
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Both Great Knives no doubt, which Battle Mistress?

In gritty material, several knives hold a better edge, though none resharpen so easily as at least the SHBM's
With the Asym Grind.

Smaller knives, Stellite and Tallonite, the edges last longer and resharpen very easily, but also tend to bend if used as pry bars.

But, Finding Tallonite and Stellite smaller knives has gotten pretty tough.

I kind of figure to end up with some 3V in trade, next time I sell some knives, likely another Sebenza.


A little stropping and Old INFI tends to come right back to shaving sharp.
 
Not that it matters, but I notice your Busse cost about $600. I wonder if you bought it on the secondary market or possibly purchased a custom-shop model or limited edition? I don't think Busse has ever produced a combat grade (field grade) Battle Mistress for more than $487, which is still a little under the price of your Keffler. As I said, it doesn't matter, but since you pointed that out in your original post...

If you did buy the Battle Mistress on the secondary market, I think from a money standpoint it obviously proved its value there as well.

Just sayin'... :)
 
Big Keffler fan here.

I will have to pick one of his big choppers up some time.

I have said it before, INFI is not magic. We know for pure edge retention, quite a few steels outperform it.

What it does well, is combine toughness, ease of sharpening, ease of care, and pretty decent edge retention.

It really shines when you smack a rock, or nail, or other hard object (which I have done with most of my big choppers at one time or another).

Nothing has been as easy to restore for me. Steeling actually puts the edge deformation back, when you think it is going to take a long time to fix, it just does not take as long.

For smaller knives, I think Infi gets beat out by other steels if you are only looking for edge retention, and not toughness.

My BAD held an edge noticeably longer than the regular hardness slicers I had.

I think Jerry needs to get working on his higher edge retention steels! (Infi 2.0 has been mentioned), and I think the the higher hardness on the BAD's proved to me it was totally worth it for how I use my small/thin knives.
 
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