Anyone have a problem with HI Khukris being crooked???

M

Montgomery

Joined
Dec 19, 2003
Messages
22
Ok, I AM going to order an HI Chiruwa AK this friday....but I have a new born and money is tight.....and I am picky.

My question is:

Has anyone ever recieved an HI khukri that was bowed or crooked (guess, I mean not straight)?

Since my wife and I do nto have a lot of free cash right now, I just want my khukri to be as near to prefect as possible....and 145$ IS ALOT of cash for a new dad to spend....but I GOTTA have one......
 
If you want to be really sure, write it in your e-mail when you order it. Yangdu will probably check it for you.
 
Good advice Bruise.
From what I've experience the Kamis do an incredible job keeping the blades straight. Have a sword that has a little bend to it. Not a problem though.
Montgomery, remember these khuks are hand made and display dents where the hammer hit the steel, and each one is a little different. These are not CNC manufactured knives like you get from most places. They display alot of personality and thats what makes them special. If you don't like what you get Uncle Bill has a great return/exchange policy. Never used it myself, but its there if needed. Give 'em a try. You won't be dissapointed! :D
Just broke like the rest of us!:D :D
 
Depending on how close you look,
they all are a -little- bent,
or not quite perfect along some line or feature.
It depends somewhat on how the kami
was doing on the day he made it.
Considering the medium & the tools,
the work is downright amazing.

Best advice you've already been given.

Have your dad call or email the order with
explicit request for a straight spine.
Then if for some reason you don't like it
request an exchange before you scratch it up.
Before you scratch it up
is in consideration of the company,
they'll exchange it either way.
 
Dents, lack of straightness and anything else unsightly has NOTHING to do with hand made VS CNC work. It is just sloppy workmanship.........period. There are plenty of smiths all over the world who have no trouble with hand made perfection. Ever seen a Japanese sword? From start to finish with out a machine touching it?
There is no machine finish that can match it..NONE.

That said we all have to realize something _these are t-o-o-l-s_. The Kamis have little regard for the stupidity we place on a fine finish for a "tool."
It would be like complaining that your lawn mower blade had a scratch on it or that your hammer's finish was not polished. The hardware store owner would look at us and sum us up for the idiots we are.
The trouble is we cannot mentally wrap ourselves around that idea for a knife. To us they're supposed to be shiny with no pitting or spots or file, hammer or makers marks.
But thats our problem- not the Nepalese.
Personaly, I like my knives carbon not stainless and I like an aged look. Not my swords though-those I prefer polished
Cheers
Dan
 
Ever seen a Japanese sword? From start to finish with out a machine touching it?
Click to expand...

Actually, just for trivia's sake, one of the top smiths in Japan (Yoshindo Yoshihara) uses a power hammer to forge out his blades. But it's still handmade by MY definition - somebody's gotta guide the steel underneath the hammer after all.
 
True enough. Perculiar rig too! Not tall like my 50lb chambers they are way squat like a modern air hammer.
But I was thinking more of the 1000 year history of the cultures swords not the modern ones. That said power hammers are for folding drawing out and have nothing to do with finish work-the topic at hand.
By the way one of my Katanas he saw (around 1992 or 93) he flipped over and could not believe it was made by an American-he kept returning to the table then asked to take the handle off-I wasn't there- this was told to me by three smiths present.

Suffice to say that any hammer mark or file mark can be sanded/polished out. You just have to "want" to do it. My point was that its a culture thing and we should not fault THEM for our perceptions. I am as guilty as any one of us.

It is difficult to market to a foriegn crowd-you have to know and understand their perceptions.

Dan "Never have polished my hammers and crow bars" Harden
 
Originally posted by Dan Harden
anything else unsightly has NOTHING to do with hand made VS CNC work. It is just sloppy workmanship.........period.
.... Ever seen a Japanese sword? From start to finish with out a machine touching it? There is no machine finish that can match it..NONE.....
Click to expand...
You make several good points.

At the same time you fail to address the details on both ends.

At the extremes,
a traditional Japanese-made sword of this quality is typically made
by at least three specialists (smith, refiner-polisher, 'fitting-smith')
who spend -long- hours on each blade knowing it will be
appreciated as both art & weapon,
and that it will be sold at a premium.
Made by one smith, the same hours are involved.
I'll bring up the 80/20 'rule' (round-figure concept here);
the last 20% of the result takes 80% of the time/effort/$/etc.

The khukuri is made by a smith who is trying to put food on the table
AND
-cannot- spend hours looking for the last scratch in the blade.
The kamis put 80% of their effort into producing a servicable blade,
& only 20% into pretty-ing it.
As you point out, it's a tool.
I've no doubt that if we wanted to spend $1000 or more for a khukuri,
that they could afford to spend the hours -just- to refine the
blade geometry, polish & fittings to criteria approaching
Japanese master smiths.
But then too, I wouldn't have even one khuk.

Yes,
"perfection" is practicable,
you are right,
absolutely & undeniably;
in some situations.

I still admire my khuks & the kamis that made them.
I will still say these are 'master' smiths
who turn out masterful products.

Your use of "sloppy workmanship" is where I
find disagreement with your comments.

Time is the bottom line.

This is not a fault of the kamis or anyone else.

To call them sloppy is to cast aspersions.

Be well.
 
My hands down favorite khukuri has an unvarnished handle, satin blade finish and when you look at the blade you can still see dents in it from the hammer. Not terrible dents, but you can for sure tell it was pounded. On the other hand the shape of the blade and handle, the balance and the hardness of the edge are wonderful.
 
Dean

Actually the foundation polish is done by the smith to establish the lines he wants. This is done Prior to hardening with files then the clean up after with stones and this involves removing ALL of the file and hammer marks........ The toshi only THEN begins the rest of the work that takes hours and hours.

Your other _valid_ point is one of time. And that is well said. You know it sounds like we are saying the same thing. I was actually making an argument FOR reasons of the rough finish-in fact- justifying it.
I guess its a misconception of my use of the word sloppy. I could use "incomplete" but that's not correct either since they are "complete" for that culture.
See what I mean? There is no ill will. As I said in the other thread I would buy two more 18" Dui chirras and pay a big premium if I could get them to harden the sweet spot wider and higher up 3/4 or so and do the whole edge. I use them for draw knives so I use the whole blade
There are no negative connotations other than the misunderstanding of the cultures who buys the blades or of the ocassional failures I happened to have got. But that happens to any of us who make things. The fact that they replace them says it all. Who could ask for more?


In a sense we are agreeing with the reasons for the level of finish. And I am perfectly fine to argue _for_ those reasons. Cost being one of them, use being another.
I just wish I had a crack at them listening and doing it just a liiiiittle different to make a better blade. But with such a history behind it-they would see no point in changing anything anyway. Thats what I meant marketing and UNDERSTANDING about marketing to a different culture.
For little increase in time on one end, and a DECREASE in time on another we could increase their sales to broader market base and have them competing on a higher level.
Lest you misunderstand my intent........that means $$$$$ on their tables and in their houses.

I like to improve on what I do ad make more money.
The harder I work the luckier I get.
Dan
 
FWIW

I am lucky enough to have been enployed, single, and interested in Japanese swords before the "economic miracle" in Japan (You know, the one that ended ten years ago.) Then, the Japanese began buy back the swords they sold in the 19th century and we "liberated" in 1945-46 -- at whatever price it took. Prices went way up and stayed way up.

(Another advantage, I had was that the best swords were placed at the end of the auctions -- a climax, by which point the dealers had spent their budget [They had to get inventory.] and, on average, prices realized fell below prices expected.)

I noticed that the curve of the back on most swords that I bought was a series of straight lines -- a curve on an early PC monitor -- rather than a true curve. The really fine swords -- I think of one made in 1311 -- had a true curve. That became the first thing I looked at when examining a Japanese sword. Yet, some of the swords that lack the perfection of curve are worth rather large amounts of money now, even if the smith is not rated at 100.

I have a HI "Shop 2" khukuri where all the curves are curves and all the straight lines are as straight as the human eye can judge. One can feel the forging "dents" along the flats only with great difficulty.
 
Thats tough to reply to

The curve on most katana are the result of the edge expanding and the back contracting at hardening. THis is a natural prcess and the reason that not all curves are the same. It takes along time to learn how to apply the clay to make a Koshi-zori VS a Tori-zori at will. However the series of lines that you mention are the result of polishing and that is the result of some pretty poor polishing if you ask me.....hmmm

What is truly interesting is that the curve is NOT natural in a Kuhkri from any mechanical means in the hardening. That would force its forged-in reverse curve to straighten somewhat.
So
What I am saying is everything you presented is backward to your theory. I'm not saying your wrong mind you. Just that the Kuhkri is the straight line (forged, filed and polished) made into a curve and that the Katana is more natural. Make sense?
The lines on my kuhkris spanning a hundred years and many makers are ttee-errible compared to any katana I own. And that aint a bad thing

Dan
 
Originally posted by Dan Harden
Dean

As I said in the other thread I would buy two more 18" Dui chirras and pay a big premium if I could get them to harden the sweet spot wider and higher up 3/4 or so and do the whole edge. I use them for draw knives so I use the whole blade
Dan
Click to expand...

I'd like the sweet spot to be longer too. When it is so narrow you have to really concentrate where you are putting the edge or risk bending it.
 
Hi Dan,

sloppy:
Marked by a lack of neatness or order; untidy:
Marked by a lack of care or precision; slipshod:
.......

Although your use is precise,
in common usage it is used and heard as an aspersion.

----------

I have no 'hands on'.
The few dozen hours I've spent reading web sources
over the past couple of years are the sole source
of my knowledge in the area of swordsmithing around the world.
Which is not enough to claim any 'expertise',
just mildly informed.

But, several katana info sources (which I do not have cataloged)
stated clearly that the polisher refined the geometry.
Several sources also indicated that it was common for
later polishers to re-refine the geometry;
not to remake the blade but to correct earlier errors.

Undoubtedly different combinations of work distribution
have been practiced at different times and places.
So my info was clearly incomplete.

------------
FWIW--here's one new source saying what I recall:
From: http://www.sayashi.com/articles/habaki.htm
" Basically once the sword is produced the blade is prepared , generally by the smith himself, for polish. At this time the smith will prepare foundation using a large water/grinding wheel to dimensions that he wishes to be followed by the polisher. This is called Kaji oroshi. The smith usually works in conjunction with one to several polishers who understand what the sword smith's intentions are for each blade and will continue to polish the blade with special consideration to the minds eye of the smith. The polisher now works with the blade to establish the shitaji or foundation of the blade. "
 
Boy, did I ever open a can of worms.....

Honestly the finish isnt a problem....what I am talking about is if you look down the spine from the handle to the point.....my obsessiveness about that being straight is crazy......

I just dont want to look down the spine of my knife and see that it is bowed from left to right or vice versa....
 
Originally posted by Montgomery
I just dont want to look down the spine of my knife and see that it is bowed from left to right or vice versa....
Click to expand...
It happens, but the original advice is sound.
Exchange it if there's anything not to your liking.
 
but some of them have a slight bow (1mm over 4-6 inches, so not bad) on the hardened area of the blade. I think that this is from the quenching process. Almost all of the 8 HI seax blades exhibited a similar slight bow (which does not affect performance at all), all in the exact same area and direction. Once again, I thingk the steel bent a bit under quenching, but it may also have been from hammer forging. The A&A Shifford vilking asword I have has an ever-so slight bend to it across the entire length of the blade.

Keith
 
Dan,

Do you have a website? Aside from kuks, I only have one Japanese style sword currently, and that is just a WWII NCO sword. Real steel, but not very traditional. One day, when I have the funds, I'd like to get a good sword, perhaps a Shinden Fudo Ryu-style sword.

Now, if I can just find someone in the Augusta area teaching kenjutsu! I heard there was a local Takagi Yoshin Ryu teacher, but that he wasn't taking new students...

John
 
A i6.5" Chiruwa AK hss been listed as a blem or UBDOTD in the last week, hasn't it?

IIRC HI did have an 18" Bura sirupati returned because of lack of straightness. I bought it ( snatched it up before anyone else saw it is more like it ).

The guy who returned it told me when I didn't see where it was bent and then I could see a bowing of the edge about 3 or 4 inches back from the tip. Seemed minimal to me, but it mattered to him, and the HI guarantee is that it'll satisfy YOU. It wasn't up to what the purchaser wanted, so Uncle Bill made it good - either replaced with one that was acceptable to him or the purchase price refunded.

To me, it's something that'll eventually even out with a bit of heavy sharpening. a Sirupati is more a fighter and light use blade. Had it been an Ang Khola, used for heavy chopping, I'd have fixed it immediately. A good man on a belt sander could fix it in 5 minutes, or using handtools - files and sandpaper would take an hour or two if that to even out the bow and return the finish by hand.

But then those are my standards, and the feel and balance ( and spirit ) of each blade matters more to me than some minor defects. Most of my Khuks are blems.

To me buying a $1600 Single Action Army Colt, then leaving the plastic tie in place locking the hammer down so the cylinder turning won't let the bolt scratch the blueing is rediculous.

If it's mine it gets fired to see where it hits. It may be pampered, and treated very gently, but if someone tries to break in and it's all that is handy ( big fat chance!!! ) it will be loaded, cocked, and pointed at the intruder. His choice what happens from there. And the 18" Sirupati by Bura will likely be in my other hand, or else my new 16.5" Bura WWII.

Grab a blem and specify to check the staightness of spine and edge before they send it. The guarantee applies to blems too, except the part that is specified as making it a blem.
 
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