Anyone know the approx. age of this South American Legitimus?

T

Twindog

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Does anyone know the approximate age of this old stock Collins Legitimus? I’m especially wondering if it is from the 1800s.


The paper label is partly in Spanish, and the round eye is what the company used for axe heads going to Central and South America. The inside diameter of the eye is 1.75 inches. The head is 8 inches long, and the blade is about 4 inches. Model No. 1034.


I know there were a lot of counterfeits back in the day, but this one has both the paper label and it’s stamped from Hartford. The paper label has Sam W. Collins’ signature.




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Hard to say, as Collins was the big player in SA up until the early 60s. I would say that is from the 1950s.
 
Operator1975 said:
Hard to say, as Collins was the big player in SA up until the early 60s. I would say that is from the 1950s.
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Thanks, I thought it would be from 1826-1834 because I read that that's when the name "Collins & Co." was used. But it looks newer, so I'm sure your correct.
 
Twindog said:
Thanks, I thought it would be from 1826-1834 because I read that that's when the name "Collins & Co." was used. But it looks newer, so I'm sure your correct.
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You bring up a great point with the name, and the names used for axe lines is a major pain in the wazoo trying to figure out what came from when.

Yours very well could be older than the 50s. If that is the case, it is very rare to be in that condition. Most paper label axes seen now were either the old companys hold overs in offices, some old timer packed away and forgot about, or come from other collectors.

Ill look at the name a little closer, but if I remember right Collins continued to use the Collins & Co name well post 1834 in order to continue name recognition with customers. Will double check. Great call out though!
 
Twindog said:
Thanks, I thought it would be from 1826-1834 because I read that that's when the name "Collins & Co." was used. But it looks newer, so I'm sure your correct.
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Operator1975 said:
You bring up a great point with the name, and the names used for axe lines is a major pain in the wazoo trying to figure out what came from when.

Yours very well could be older than the 50s. If that is the case, it is very rare to be in that condition. Most paper label axes seen now were either the old companys hold overs in offices, some old timer packed away and forgot about, or come from other collectors.

Ill look at the name a little closer, but if I remember right Collins continued to use the Collins & Co name well post 1834 in order to continue name recognition with customers. Will double check. Great call out though!
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CHECK!

From Yesteryear Tools -

"Interestingly, the original company name Collins & Co., continued to be used on many of the company's products, with and without the addition of the distributor names, after the company name changed and was used on some labels and as part of some stampings until the company was liquidated in 1966."

So thats what I thought, and doesn't help us date that axe. Again, guessing, I would say its from the 50s, but thats a guess without getting a hold of it.

If you look at my avatar, I have one almost identical, and it is from the 50s.

Thanks!
 
Thanks a ton, Operator. And thanks for sharing all your information. Really appreciated.

I thought that the round eye was designed for South America because it was easier to mount for people in the 1800s who didn't have access to shaped hafts. But maybe by the later years they would have switched to standard eyes because of the easier access in modern days to regular hafts.

I also thought that this would be beautiful to mount to a round haft using a crossed wedging system, but I don't know how to clean it up for mounting. Obviously, I don't want to take a wire brush to it. Is there a gentle way to clean this up a bit without ruining it?

I bought this on eBay. It was listed as new/old stock, found in some estate sale, presumably never sent south.
 
Thanks, Steve. It never occurred to me that it would be hung like a hawk. You've changed my approach.
 
Yeah the South/Central American axes were usually (not always) intended to be hung using a taper-fit handle rather than a wedged one. You can still wedge heads intended for taper-fit handles but it's trickier. Among other advantages for that market, a taper-fit handle can be made with very limited tools, such as using the head to make its own handle.

The round eye always bugged me to see. It's a very sub-optimal shape for an axe eye. It works fine for hoes because gravity naturally indexes the head, but it'd be likely to twist on the handle with an axe head. Makes me wonder, though, if part of the design choice wasn't just the low cost of manufacture but also because maybe hoe handle makers in the destination country could easily/inexpensively lathe-turn handles to fit the axes as well.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
The round eye always bugged me to see. It's a very sub-optimal shape for an axe eye. It works fine for hoes because gravity naturally indexes the head, but it'd be likely to twist on the handle with an axe head. Makes me wonder, though, if part of the design choice wasn't just the low cost of manufacture but also because maybe hoe handle makers in the destination country could easily/inexpensively lathe-turn handles to fit the axes as well.
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My thinking is that a round eye is very convenient for adapting a de-barked tree branch as a haft. Coming up with a slab of hardwood and shaping it with rudimentary tools (ie the axe head, or a machete) is much more work! As well a branch-derived handle has an inherent taper to it (especially near the trunk) and as the wood cures (or if the humidity changes) it would continually seat itself within the axe eye.
40 years ago I spent a couple of weeks along the Amazon River at the Colombia/Peru/Brazil border town of Leticia and a couple of days in an upstream Native village. Humidity was a constant 100%, temperature 90-95 F, and anything organic succumbed to ants, rot and fungus within a short period if it was left exposed. Even photographic film inside a camera developed an algae green tint after a couple of weeks.
 
If I was using debarked saplings for handles I'd still want the eye to be at least shaped like a circle with the sides trimmed flat. Minimal difference in labor and a big difference in function.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
If I was using debarked saplings for handles I'd still want the eye to be at least shaped like a circle with the sides trimmed flat. Minimal difference in labor and a big difference in function.
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Your opinion and mine don't differ in this regard (I have no use for round eye tools of any stripe either) but thinning the sides of a circular grain tree branch would weaken it by removing much of the parallel-to-the-blade grain. Notice that no one uses tree branches to make axe handles; the benefits (the strength of circular rings much like a circular piece of pipe) are negated by shaping!
 
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